Ranking of Lyndon B. Johnson
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  Ranking of Lyndon B. Johnson
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Question: If he did NOT get the United States further entangled in South Vietnam, how would he rank in comparison to other presidents?
#1
Best ever
 
#2
Top 5
 
#3
Top 10
 
#4
Top half
 
#5
Bottom half
 
#6
Bottom 10
 
#7
Bottom 5
 
#8
Worst ever
 
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Author Topic: Ranking of Lyndon B. Johnson  (Read 4937 times)
Frodo
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« on: December 08, 2007, 11:25:09 PM »

Let's suppose he did not send in 3,500 Marines on March 8th, 1965 to Da Nang (which marked the beginning of the American ground war), and he remained focused on his domestic agenda.

How would he rate, in your opinion?  Discuss......

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Dr. Cynic
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« Reply #1 on: December 09, 2007, 01:11:57 AM »

If Vietnam had never happened, Johnson would be thought of in a radically different light, and would be much more popular. I would say domestically, he was one of our top ten Presidents.
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Beet
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« Reply #2 on: December 09, 2007, 02:03:25 AM »

LBJ was one of those bureaucratic screwball types who should have remained Vice President or Senate Majority Leader, because that was what he was made for. The same goes for Richard Nixon... Watergate or not, he was not fit to be President. People remember Nixon for his accomplishments, but they forget the big picture that the nation continued to drift without direction during his administration. Johnson was made of the same cloth. Kennedy wanted action with purpose and direction; Johnson gave us action but without purpose or direction. That is why Kennedy is far more admired than Johnson, even though Johnson did more legislatively. It is more than just the Vietnam war. There is the sense that had Kennedy survived, it would have all worked out better. No one knows, but there's certainly that sense.
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dead0man
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« Reply #3 on: December 09, 2007, 09:25:02 AM »

Bottom 10.

The Great Society was a giant step in creating the monster bureaucracy we have today in the Federal government.  I think only FDR did more.  He didn't stop us from going to the moon, so I guess that's a good thing.  By all accounts, he was a HUGE asshat.
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Lief 🗽
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« Reply #4 on: December 09, 2007, 10:38:36 AM »

Easily top 10, perhaps top 5 (I'm thinking between 5th and 8th place). Great Society and Civil Rights were what he wanted to be remembered by.
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CPT MikeyMike
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« Reply #5 on: December 09, 2007, 12:29:20 PM »

It would be seen differently according to political parties, like we see with Ronald Reagan. Liberals would rank LBJ in the top 10 and Conservatives would rank LBJ in the bottom 10.

As much as I applaud him for the Civil Rights passage, though the credit should go mainly to JFK, I put LBJ in the bottom half since the Great Society was a horrible program that has, as dead0man said correctly, created the monster bureaucracy in the federal government and we are still feeling that ill today.
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« Reply #6 on: December 09, 2007, 12:38:39 PM »

Because of the Great Society, I could say top 5, no lower than 7th.
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Robespierre's Jaw
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« Reply #7 on: December 09, 2007, 04:06:17 PM »

If LBJ hadn't got into the mess known as Vietnam, LBJ would be placed pretty high in the historical rankings of Presidents. I would say LBJ would be in the Top 10, if not then he would be in the top half. As Lief said, he would be remembered for the Great Society and Civil Rights.
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« Reply #8 on: December 09, 2007, 04:18:54 PM »

Top 5, due to civil rights.
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Filuwaúrdjan
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« Reply #9 on: December 09, 2007, 06:43:30 PM »


Pulled out of, surely? The U.S was involved in Vietnam before LBJ became President.
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Robespierre's Jaw
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« Reply #10 on: December 10, 2007, 05:15:08 AM »


Pulled out of, surely? The U.S was involved in Vietnam before LBJ became President.

I do know that Vietnam was a mess before LBJ became President. But it slowly, but surely became a huge mess after the Gulf of Tonkin incident. Which even Robert McNamara says, probably didn't occur the way the Administration played out it did.
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gorkay
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« Reply #11 on: December 11, 2007, 07:18:57 PM »

Without Vietnam (or more accurately, if he had handled it better), LBJ would rank very, very high, because his domestic accomplishments were greater than those of any other President with the possible exception of FDR. The Civil Rights Act, The Voting Rights Act, Medicare, the other Great Society programs... he had quite a run there.

I have to add in LBJ's defense that he wasn't the only one responsible for the Vietnam mess, although he's taken almost all the blame. His advisers, the "Best and the Brightest," were all for it too, and instead of sharing the blame they bailed on him when he needed them the most.
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JSojourner
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« Reply #12 on: December 16, 2007, 02:07:50 PM »

Domestically?  Second only to FDR.

Foreign policy?  Behind only Nixon and The Decider in terms of being disastrous.  In fact, I might even bump Nixon above him.  At least he opened relations with China.
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Verily
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« Reply #13 on: December 16, 2007, 06:11:40 PM »


Pulled out of, surely? The U.S was involved in Vietnam before LBJ became President.

All we had there were advisors. Yes, we were "involved", but there were no American combat troops in Vietnam.
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Ebowed
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« Reply #14 on: December 16, 2007, 06:35:32 PM »


Pulled out of, surely? The U.S was involved in Vietnam before LBJ became President.

All we had there were advisors. Yes, we were "involved", but there were no American combat troops in Vietnam.

I'm not sure that's true, I remember reading that there were something like 10,000-20,000 troops there during Eisenhower/Kennedy

I could be very wrong though.  Probably just imagining things.
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JSojourner
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« Reply #15 on: December 17, 2007, 12:47:09 AM »


Pulled out of, surely? The U.S was involved in Vietnam before LBJ became President.

All we had there were advisors. Yes, we were "involved", but there were no American combat troops in Vietnam.

There were thousands of "advisors" there before LBJ.  President Kennedy had every intention of pulling them all out but he was assassinated.  I heartily commend John Newman's book, JFK And Vietnam.  Might still be in print but if not, your library should have it.
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gorkay
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« Reply #16 on: December 17, 2007, 06:03:56 PM »

I had been doubtful about claims that Kennedy would have withdrawn from Vietnam but these claims seem to have some validity. Arthur Schlesinger mentions this in his recently-published Journals as well, and although he consistently paints all things Kennedy in the best possible light, there still seems to be some evidence that Kennedy was at least considering it.
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JSojourner
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« Reply #17 on: December 17, 2007, 11:47:30 PM »

The evidence is overwhelming, if you ask me...

http://www.bostonreview.net/BR28.5/galbraith.html


Now, I am hardly prepared to suggest that Kennedy's plan was what brought about his demise.  But that he intended to withdraw troops/advisors from SE Asia, or Vietnam at least, is now a matter of historical record.
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Cubby
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« Reply #18 on: December 18, 2007, 01:59:19 AM »

As much as I applaud him for the Civil Rights passage, though the credit should go mainly to JFK.....

No, they should share credit equally. Kennedy was too scared of losing the support of Southern Democrats at first and he dithered for too long.


Without Vietnam, I'd rank Lyndon Johnson as the 4th best President ever, after FDR, Lincoln and Washington.
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gorkay
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« Reply #19 on: December 18, 2007, 07:54:15 PM »

As much as I applaud him for the Civil Rights passage, though the credit should go mainly to JFK.....

No, they should share credit equally. Kennedy was too scared of losing the support of Southern Democrats at first and he dithered for too long.


Without Vietnam, I'd rank Lyndon Johnson as the 4th best President ever, after FDR, Lincoln and Washington.

The political climate for getting civil-rights legislature enacted was less favorable for JFK than for LBJ (ironically, in large part because LBJ framed it as a tribute to JFK).
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opebo
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« Reply #20 on: January 15, 2008, 09:59:44 AM »

This tragic old man-mountain is the best that WE'VE had.  (Yes we haven't done so well).
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