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Author Topic: Free trade  (Read 11228 times)
Gustaf
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« on: February 09, 2004, 02:23:15 pm »
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OK, here's a poll to continue the previous discussion on trade. I consider myself a free trader. Smiley
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« Reply #1 on: February 09, 2004, 02:28:51 pm »
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I'm all for fair trade, in other words protecting vunerable industries and being nice to poor farmers in the Third World.
This is mostly a result of my religious beliefs.

BTW in the early C20th "Free Trade v Protection" was the political issue.
Look up the 1906 election in the U.K for more info.
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Richard Hoggart 1918-2014
Gustaf
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« Reply #2 on: February 09, 2004, 02:35:53 pm »
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I'm all for fair trade, in other words protecting vunerable industries and being nice to poor farmers in the Third World.
This is mostly a result of my religious beliefs.

BTW in the early C20th "Free Trade v Protection" was the political issue.
Look up the 1906 election in the U.K for more info.

Oh, yes I know. It's the issue that made the Peel goverment fall, ended the Tory dominance in 1905 and caused Churchill to become a Tory. Those were the days... Smiley
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« Reply #3 on: February 09, 2004, 03:02:44 pm »
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Peel was backstabbed by his own backbenchers over the repeal of the Corn Laws in the 1840's, but Free Trade as an issue really set fire with Joseph Chamberlain("Radical Joe")'s "free trade loaf v protection loaf speech" in the early C20th.
It caused the Balfour Government to fall in 1905 and resulted in the Liberal landslide of 1906.
BTW Churchill became a Liberal as a result of the issue. He re-ratted in the 1920's.

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Richard Hoggart 1918-2014
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« Reply #4 on: February 09, 2004, 03:35:17 pm »
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Free Trade with some nations, Fair Trade with others.
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Gustaf
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« Reply #5 on: February 09, 2004, 03:53:55 pm »
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BTW Churchill became a Liberal as a result of the issue. He re-ratted in the 1920's.



Eeehm...yeah...I meant Liberal of course, just mistyped Tory... Sad
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« Reply #6 on: February 09, 2004, 04:23:41 pm »
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Free Trade

What it's all about
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Strategos Autokrator
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« Reply #7 on: February 09, 2004, 04:44:42 pm »
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Voted for "Moderately restricted trade".
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Gustaf
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« Reply #8 on: February 09, 2004, 05:29:24 pm »
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So far "moderately resticted trade" is leading...maybe I should have had fewer choices... Sad at least protectionist is getting no votes so far. Smiley
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« Reply #9 on: February 09, 2004, 06:04:03 pm »
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I beleive in a worldwide free trade zone in every sector, industrial, agricultural, services, even telecommunications. This would lead to the creation of a world economy in which foreign nations would have no meaning. This could possibly be followed up by a world currency, loosening of borders, and other things that have happened in the EU. However, as in Europe, this requires as a prerequisite that all members be democratic nations. Once this happens we will have a truly Fukuyaman end of history.
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« Reply #10 on: February 09, 2004, 07:29:30 pm »
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I voted for Fair Trade, in order to protect international workers.
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« Reply #11 on: February 09, 2004, 09:19:15 pm »
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I voted for Fair Trade in order to protect AMERICAN workers AND hopefully lift the wages paid to international workers, thus improving their long term standard of living.

NCLib,

By the way, do we know each other? I'm starting to get the sense from your posts and geographical location that you are a Professor I know personally. Am I correct Mike?
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« Reply #12 on: February 10, 2004, 12:48:53 am »
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NCLib,

By the way, do we know each other? I'm starting to get the sense from your posts and geographical location that you are a Professor I know personally. Am I correct Mike?

No, you must be thinking of someone else. Though it does seem like a small world at times. Smiley
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« Reply #13 on: February 10, 2004, 01:16:25 am »
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NcLib,

Sorry for the misidentification. Your use of language and your political views were just very similar to this guy I know who teaches political science at a college in North Carolina.
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Gustaf
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« Reply #14 on: February 10, 2004, 11:53:24 am »
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I beleive in a worldwide free trade zone in every sector, industrial, agricultural, services, even telecommunications. This would lead to the creation of a world economy in which foreign nations would have no meaning. This could possibly be followed up by a world currency, loosening of borders, and other things that have happened in the EU. However, as in Europe, this requires as a prerequisite that all members be democratic nations. Once this happens we will have a truly Fukuyaman end of history.

I disagree with your conclusion. Political science shows that the need for large units, i.e. the benefits, are reduced by free trade and peace. The US has an advantage in it's big market and it's powerful armed forces, but if there is worldwide peace and free trade, both of these are useless. Therefore, progress favours small units. And I really hope the world will not turn into a global EU, that is truly a scary thought...
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NHPolitico
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« Reply #15 on: February 10, 2004, 01:52:37 pm »
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We should reduce our dependence on trade.

We should apply across-the board equalized tariffs (percent-for-percent).  

We should focus on reducing the trade deficit.  

Stop NAFTA, GATT, WTO, etc.-- they threaten our sovereignty.  We've always had bilateral trade treaties with other nations. They worked just fine.

We should not bailout nations like Mexico for their mismanagement.  

We should oppose MFN and WTO membership and further World Bank and Asian Development Bank loans for China. We should engage China for trade, as we should with other nations, but it must be equitable and we must require that they stay out of our elections, stop stealing our nuclear secrets, stop targeting our cities, stop forced abortions, stop forced participation in work "concentration" camps, and stop the oppression of women, Christians, Tibetans & political dissidents in exchange.   We used to shame companies that did things like sell scrap iron to the Empire of Japan while they made belligerent overtures which ended in Pearl Harbor, yet we encourage companies today to treat basicly hostile nations like China as dear friends of our country. Steel dumping from Asia must cease.

We must work to break up OPEC and wean ourselves off our dependence on Middle East oil with consequent oil conservation, an upping of domestic production, reconsideration of alternative power sources, and rapid development of emerging Russian oil reserves.

We can't treat transnational corporations as if they are American companies who seek to act in the best interest of this country or its workers. They are more interested in global sovereignty than American sovereignty. It's up to our leaders to look out for the interests of American workers.
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NHPolitico
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« Reply #16 on: February 10, 2004, 01:55:29 pm »
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I beleive in a worldwide free trade zone in every sector, industrial, agricultural, services, even telecommunications. This would lead to the creation of a world economy in which foreign nations would have no meaning. This could possibly be followed up by a world currency, loosening of borders, and other things that have happened in the EU. However, as in Europe, this requires as a prerequisite that all members be democratic nations. Once this happens we will have a truly Fukuyaman end of history.

Exactly. Why have borders, why enforce them, why have a currency, etc.?  None of it is in line with the goals of global free trade. I live under the Constitution, not the employee manual of Transnational Corporation X.
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Gustaf
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« Reply #17 on: February 10, 2004, 02:14:41 pm »
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I beleive in a worldwide free trade zone in every sector, industrial, agricultural, services, even telecommunications. This would lead to the creation of a world economy in which foreign nations would have no meaning. This could possibly be followed up by a world currency, loosening of borders, and other things that have happened in the EU. However, as in Europe, this requires as a prerequisite that all members be democratic nations. Once this happens we will have a truly Fukuyaman end of history.

Exactly. Why have borders, why enforce them, why have a currency, etc.?  None of it is in line with the goals of global free trade. I live under the Constitution, not the employee manual of Transnational Corporation X.

Read my response to M's post. That theory is wrong.
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« Reply #18 on: February 10, 2004, 02:24:40 pm »
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I beleive in a worldwide free trade zone in every sector, industrial, agricultural, services, even telecommunications. This would lead to the creation of a world economy in which foreign nations would have no meaning. This could possibly be followed up by a world currency, loosening of borders, and other things that have happened in the EU. However, as in Europe, this requires as a prerequisite that all members be democratic nations. Once this happens we will have a truly Fukuyaman end of history.

Exactly. Why have borders, why enforce them, why have a currency, etc.?  None of it is in line with the goals of global free trade. I live under the Constitution, not the employee manual of Transnational Corporation X.

Read my response to M's post. That theory is wrong.

The world won't be under the conditions for your theory. Free trade hastens the break-up of borders and cultural identities and currencies and nationalism.  It hastens a chaos controlled, as it is, by a corporate elite who only accidentally act in the best interests of the workers of a nation.
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« Reply #19 on: February 10, 2004, 02:51:47 pm »
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I'd add that this is what happens when you de-industrialize and only consume...

US consumer debt has reached staggering levels after more than doubling over the past 10 years. According to the most recent figures from the Federal Reserve Board, consumer debt hit $1.98 trillion in October 2003, up from $1.5 trillion three years ago. This figure, representing credit card and car loan debt, but excluding mortgages, translates into approximately $18,700 per US household.

Outstanding consumer credit, including mortgage and other debt, reached $9.3 trillion in April 2003, representing an increase from $7 trillion in January 2000. The total credit card debt alone stands at $735 billion, with the household card debt of those who carry balances estimated to average $12,000.

The levels of consumer debt have increased as millions of jobs have been destroyed. Unlike past recessions, consumers continued to borrow during the last downturn, which began in March 2001 and officially ended in November 2001. The prime lending rate set by the Federal Reserve is at an historic low, allowing mortgage rates to drop to their lowest recorded levels. The automobile companies, which have offered zero percent financing for the past two years, have begun doing the same for 2004.

According to CNNMoney.com, consumer spending accounts for some 70 percent of the US gross domestic product. "So the world economy is leveraged to the US consumer. And the US consumer is leveraged to the hilt," states the web site.
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Gustaf
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« Reply #20 on: February 10, 2004, 03:59:43 pm »
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I beleive in a worldwide free trade zone in every sector, industrial, agricultural, services, even telecommunications. This would lead to the creation of a world economy in which foreign nations would have no meaning. This could possibly be followed up by a world currency, loosening of borders, and other things that have happened in the EU. However, as in Europe, this requires as a prerequisite that all members be democratic nations. Once this happens we will have a truly Fukuyaman end of history.

Exactly. Why have borders, why enforce them, why have a currency, etc.?  None of it is in line with the goals of global free trade. I live under the Constitution, not the employee manual of Transnational Corporation X.

Read my response to M's post. That theory is wrong.

The world won't be under the conditions for your theory. Free trade hastens the break-up of borders and cultural identities and currencies and nationalism.  It hastens a chaos controlled, as it is, by a corporate elite who only accidentally act in the best interests of the workers of a nation.

It doesn't have to, nations aren't bound by economy, it is something more than that, imo. And as I said, the case for keeping political borders is strengthened by free trade.
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« Reply #21 on: February 10, 2004, 04:03:35 pm »
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Free Trade with some nations, Fair Trade with others.
I Agree Supersoultly. Once again one of my bias about Republicans collapsed. I thought that almost all Republicans are  extremely free-traders. (except small Buchananian wing)

I voted for moderately restricted trade. Completely free trade cause more harm than it produce welfare. Global free trade is fine as idea, but practice has proved its problems. It works in some economy areas like EU, where standard of living and wages are about on same level.

Lately I have become even more suspicious about free trade. Shifting of jobs to cheap-labour-countries is increasing problem also in Finland nowadays. And I am patriotic man.
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« Reply #22 on: February 10, 2004, 04:17:48 pm »
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[quote author=Gustaf

Oh, yes I know. It's the issue that made the Peel goverment fall, ended the Tory dominance in 1905 and caused Churchill to become a Tory. Those were the days... Smiley
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Gustaf. How do you know all this? Son. You're most amazing high-school junior, who I have ever seen.
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Gustaf
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« Reply #23 on: February 10, 2004, 04:46:33 pm »
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[quote author=Gustaf

Oh, yes I know. It's the issue that made the Peel goverment fall, ended the Tory dominance in 1905 and caused Churchill to become a Tory. Those were the days... Smiley
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Gustaf. How do you know all this? Son. You're most amazing high-school junior, who I have ever seen.

Thanks. Smiley I am interested in history and have a good memory... Wink
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Gustaf
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« Reply #24 on: February 10, 2004, 05:08:21 pm »
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Also, there are a lot of young people here with a lot of knowledge, like Realpolitik, for example.
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