Do Ron Paul supporters remind you of communists?
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  Do Ron Paul supporters remind you of communists?
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Question: Do Ron Paul supporters remind you of communists?
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Author Topic: Do Ron Paul supporters remind you of communists?  (Read 1772 times)
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BRTD
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« on: December 10, 2007, 01:39:26 PM »

Yes. Not ideologically of course, and not communists NOW obviously, but look back to the 60s in countries such as France. Watch The Dreamers and take note of the twins especially the guy who reads from Mao's little red book.

Essentially, Paul's supporters are sort of a political cult similar to some communist parties, even if they are ideologically diametrically opposed.
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StateBoiler
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« Reply #1 on: December 10, 2007, 01:42:03 PM »

Yes. Not ideologically of course, and not communists NOW obviously, but look back to the 60s in countries such as France. Watch The Dreamers and take note of the twins especially the guy who reads from Mao's little red book.

Essentially, Paul's supporters are sort of a political cult similar to some communist parties, even if they are ideologically diametrically opposed.

Is it against the law to support a candidate?

I'm waiting for your next thread: is Barack Obama representative of black people?
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BRTD
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« Reply #2 on: December 10, 2007, 01:43:17 PM »

Is it against the law to support a candidate?

No, of course not. Neither is it against the law to belong to a political cult. But many Ron Paul supporters are pretty much in the latter.
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StateBoiler
fe234
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« Reply #3 on: December 10, 2007, 01:45:01 PM »

Is it against the law to support a candidate?

No, of course not. Neither is it against the law to belong to a political cult. But many Ron Paul supporters are pretty much in the latter.

And what, pray tell, is a political cult?
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Tetro Kornbluth
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« Reply #4 on: December 10, 2007, 01:45:18 PM »

If you mean the sort of doctrinaire Trotskyites\Maoists from the 20s to about the late 70s then the answer is obviously yes.
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BRTD
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« Reply #5 on: December 10, 2007, 01:46:46 PM »

Is it against the law to support a candidate?

No, of course not. Neither is it against the law to belong to a political cult. But many Ron Paul supporters are pretty much in the latter.

And what, pray tell, is a political cult?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_cult

If you mean the sort of doctrinaire Trotskyites\Maoists from the 20s to about the late 70s then the answer is obviously yes.

Yes. I thought I made that clear in the original post with the examples. Communists like that don't really exist anymore, so it's amusing that libertarians have taken their place.
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StateBoiler
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« Reply #6 on: December 10, 2007, 01:50:18 PM »

So this is your line of thinking:

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BRTD
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« Reply #7 on: December 10, 2007, 01:54:38 PM »

So this is your line of thinking:

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Er, no. Not at all. Rather it's more when these libertarians organize and begin acting like Ron Paul supporters do.

https://uselectionatlas.org/MOCK/PRESIDENT/2008R/mock.php

And go look at his InTrade numbers...

Sure this is relatively mild stuff, but it's a microcosm of a bigger picture, a belief among some Ron Paul supporters seeing him as some sort of messiah and that they must do everything to further the cause of Paul.
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Tetro Kornbluth
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« Reply #8 on: December 10, 2007, 02:02:01 PM »

So this is your line of thinking:

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You fail to realize that neither of us right now are attacking libertarianism per se; rather the attitude of some of Pauls most devout supporters.
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BRTD
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« Reply #9 on: December 10, 2007, 02:03:45 PM »

"Ron Paul Revolution" hung over every bridge possible:Maoist graffiti in Paris in 1968
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StateBoiler
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« Reply #10 on: December 10, 2007, 02:04:20 PM »
« Edited: December 10, 2007, 02:08:56 PM by StateBoiler »

So this is your line of thinking:

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Er, no. Not at all. Rather it's more when these libertarians organize and begin acting like Ron Paul supporters do.

https://uselectionatlas.org/MOCK/PRESIDENT/2008R/mock.php

And go look at his InTrade numbers...

Sure this is relatively mild stuff, but it's a microcosm of a bigger picture, a belief among some Ron Paul supporters seeing him as some sort of messiah and that they must do everything to further the cause of Paul.

Why do you give a s*** about something called an InTrade number? Does that win elections? Does it have any relevance to the overall American political landscape? No.

I have zero belief that Paul will win a primary. He has far outperformed my expectations though based on his fundraising, supporters, and poll numbers, and with that I am content because there is hope for the future for my beliefs. Maybe these people will become the Democratic and Republican representatives of tomorrow.

But when you look at the s*** each party has up for their nomination, there's not much else outside of Paul for a person that believes in the virtues of small government. George W. Bush has reformed the Republican party into this Keynesian big-government wonderland where increasingly more decisions are centralized into the executive, the legislative branch has lost a significant amount of power, and spending and new government programs are the solution to all problems. The Democrats have completely lost the plot and look at all the spending Bush approved as "not enough".

So who am I supposed to support? Neither party's establishment represents me.
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BRTD
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« Reply #11 on: December 10, 2007, 02:08:33 PM »
« Edited: December 10, 2007, 02:11:19 PM by We Live Like Lost Children »

So this is your line of thinking:

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Er, no. Not at all. Rather it's more when these libertarians organize and begin acting like Ron Paul supporters do.

https://uselectionatlas.org/MOCK/PRESIDENT/2008R/mock.php

And go look at his InTrade numbers...

Sure this is relatively mild stuff, but it's a microcosm of a bigger picture, a belief among some Ron Paul supporters seeing him as some sort of messiah and that they must do everything to further the cause of Paul.

Why do you give a s*** about something called an InTrade number? Does that win elections? Does it have any relevance to the overall American political landscape? No.

I have zero belief that Paul will win a primary. He has far outperformed my expectations though based on his fundraising, supporters, and poll numbers, and with that I am content because there is hope for the future for my beliefs. Maybe these people will become the Democratic and Republican representatives of tomorrow.

But when you look at the s*** each party has up for their nomination, there's not much else outside of Paul for a person that believes in the virtues of small government. George W. Bush has reformed the Republican party into this Keynesian big-government wonderland where increasingly more decisions are centralized into the executive, the legislative branch has lost a significant amount of power, and spending and new government programs are the solution to all problems. The Democrats have completely lost the plot and look at all the spending Bush approved as "not enough".

So who am I supposed to support? Neither party's establishment represents me.

And then there is the potential of a Clinton-Giuliani election. If that occurs, I'm going to go in a hole, curl into a ball, and cry. It would be the clearest signal to me that this country as far as being a great power is done and over with, we would have jumped the shark, and at some point we will have our Suez Canal Crisis and when it occurs it will not be pretty. I'll just stand on the sidelines and wait for everyone else to realize it.

Well then you aren't one of the cult-like Paul supporters.

But they still are regardless out there. The InTrade numbers are proof of this, as it shows there are many people willing to throw their money away betting on him. Maybe your area isn't full of the folks hanging endless amounts of Ron Paul Revolution signs out in public areas that get removed in a day, but mine sure is.
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StateBoiler
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« Reply #12 on: December 10, 2007, 02:17:07 PM »

Well then you aren't one of the cult-like Paul supporters.

But they still are regardless out there. The InTrade numbers are proof of this, as it shows there are many people willing to throw their money away betting on him. Maybe your area isn't full of the folks hanging endless amounts of Ron Paul Revolution signs out in public areas that get removed in a day, but mine sure is.

I live in a majority-black area.

I will admit that some Paul supporters need to become more rational in their expectations. However, it's a good thing that these people with passionate support exist, cause in primaries and caucuses with 10% turnout, they have a larger voice. The larger the voice, the more delegates. The more the delegates, the more say in the party platform and the eventual nominee's policies.
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Tetro Kornbluth
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« Reply #13 on: December 10, 2007, 02:20:37 PM »

I'm not American so I come from a very different angle than you, people wonder why then I post on this forum and the answer is simple.. apart from mere idle boredom, US Politics is the greatest spectator sport on earth.

But despite this I would agree you with both parties over there have long given up at any attempt at moral legitmitacy (though no doubt BRTD would disagree; that is for a different thread.)

What you fail to understand it is this thread isn't about Paul's beliefs or even about libertarianism (which I find to be an intolerant strain of American Ultra-Nationalism dressed up in the clothing of being an enlightment against the government, like it was some octopus with its oozy menancing tentacles in every jar of US society - which is somewhat true, but only because the people invited those tentacles there in the first place. But I digress..) rather this is about Ron Paul supporters - that's why the intrade thing is relevant; as it shows how deluded some of them are towards such a minor candidate - still.

One only needs to go onto any sort of right-libertarian or political in general website to find Ron Paul supporters waxing lyrical about his virtues; trying to ignore the fact that some of his biggest supporters are white supremactists and the black helicopters crowd or trying to ignore the flaws into their doctrine. You are not the worst of those types, but you still spout phrases such as "limited government" as if they were some unlimited virtue, ignoring the inherent problems of such a belief.

This is why "Ron Paulism" is borderline communistic in its rhetoric; it creates a narrative towards everything fits (Government - bad, business - good; very simple and appealing rhetoric; but how much those business - especially big business - depend on the government? For example. This is ignored or pathetically explained away - like Boss "I'm a Marxist now" Tweed trying to show us the old dead horse of fascism being a corporate conspiracy - elements of truth in that? Yes. But far from the whole story.) and this is also why Ron Paul is hardly taken seriously outside certain circles. Politics is about adapting to the problems inherent in reality. Ron Paul supporters believe and want - a different reality.
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StateBoiler
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« Reply #14 on: December 10, 2007, 02:33:32 PM »
« Edited: December 10, 2007, 02:35:48 PM by StateBoiler »

You are not the worst of those types, but you still spout phrases such as "limited government" as if they were some unlimited virtue, ignoring the inherent problems of such a belief.

What's the inherent problems in such a belief? The larger government is, the less it does and the less effective it becomes. The Department of Homeland Security (a needless extra level of bureaucracy) after Hurricane Katrina represents that point. Time after time that has been shown true.

Then you have organizations that serve a purpose for which there is nothing to do. Like the Department of Education. The Department of Education does not educate anyone. It never has and it never will. All education is under the jurisdiction of state governments. So what does all that money for the Department of "Education" do if it does not educate anyone? Just pay bureaucrats pretty well?
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« Reply #15 on: December 10, 2007, 02:37:52 PM »

The rationale of most of the Ron Paul supporters I've come across is this:

"Clinton, Giuliani, and the rest are politicians, which means they'll lie and pander for votes and money. Ron Paul just tells you what he thinks, and I like that better."

So, you're in a cult if you like someone who's not corrupt? What a sad view you have, BRTD.
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MODU
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« Reply #16 on: December 10, 2007, 02:42:21 PM »


Seems like BRTD is running out of ideas to keep up with his quota of daily threads.
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Tetro Kornbluth
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« Reply #17 on: December 10, 2007, 02:42:56 PM »

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You are cherry picking facts to suit your arguement; so actually here the thread should really be called "Are Ron Paul supporters the political equilavalents of creationists, like communists"?

What you have done is start off with a conclusion:
The Government is bad

Then found specific examples which back up your hypothesis without looking at every angle
Hurricane Katrina, The DoHS.. Interestingly in your case all stuff which has happened under Bush's watch.

Then came to your analysis from the above:
OMG TEH GOVERNMENT IS BAD!!111
...

Which is o\c the complete opposite of logical thinking, which I suppose is what we should be looking for in political debate. Similiar to the creationists, take a preconceived answer then try to discover things which to fit into that answer thereby "proving it".

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Well I against State Education in general but your analysis here is flawed (you claim like most libertarians you want to take government out of major social appartus to give them to "the people" - sounds like communism to me. Though except o\c the people often means "Business" in the former case and "the politburo" in the latter case.) by focusing on what the department of Education has done not what it could do.

The idea behind most modern political ideologies (none of which I class myself as being a card carrying member of) is that use the social appartus of government to improve what you see the flaws of society. Here you are saying the Dept. of Education should be abolished because the people running it suck. Which isn't quite the same thing.
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StateBoiler
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« Reply #18 on: December 10, 2007, 02:51:56 PM »
« Edited: December 10, 2007, 02:54:23 PM by StateBoiler »

Gully, if you want to have an argument on the "purpose of government", start it in the Political Debate forum. I, and most other Ron Paul supporters, believe that government's purpose should be narrower than it currently is. You are more than entitled to your own opinion on the purpose of government and thinking it should be larger. You'll never convince me you're right, and I'll never convince you I'm right, so there is no point to continue arguing.

But Ron Paul supporters believing in limited government does not make us communists. The reason he has a "narrative" as you call it is cause he has principles and he applies those principles to form his political beliefs. If that's wrong, taking principles to form political beliefs, than that is why as you stated, neither party over here has "moral legitimacy".
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dead0man
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« Reply #19 on: December 10, 2007, 03:11:34 PM »

Yes. Not ideologically of course, and not communists NOW obviously, but look back to the 60s in countries such as France. Watch The Dreamers and take note of the twins especially the guy who reads from Mao's little red book.

Essentially, Paul's supporters are sort of a political cult similar to some communist parties, even if they are ideologically diametrically opposed.
Are you saying this is a bad thing or just attempting to insult by contrasting the ideologies against each other?  Do you have a problem with nonviolent political activism?
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Eraserhead
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« Reply #20 on: December 10, 2007, 09:28:27 PM »

Yes and I kind of like that about them. Its kind of endearing.
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BRTD
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« Reply #21 on: December 10, 2007, 10:38:04 PM »

The rationale of most of the Ron Paul supporters I've come across is this:

"Clinton, Giuliani, and the rest are politicians, which means they'll lie and pander for votes and money. Ron Paul just tells you what he thinks, and I like that better."

So, you're in a cult if you like someone who's not corrupt? What a sad view you have, BRTD.

No, it's not why they like him. It's the way many behave and their unhealthy dedication to him.
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HappyWarrior
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« Reply #22 on: December 11, 2007, 08:17:37 AM »

The rationale of most of the Ron Paul supporters I've come across is this:

"Clinton, Giuliani, and the rest are politicians, which means they'll lie and pander for votes and money. Ron Paul just tells you what he thinks, and I like that better."

So, you're in a cult if you like someone who's not corrupt? What a sad view you have, BRTD.

No, the thing is that Paul is not a real leader for America.  He is a doctor from TX, what does he know about running the country other than his own beliefs.  Therefore it seems to me he just wants to push his crazy ideas(no matter how much people wish they would they will never work) on others.
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John Dibble
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« Reply #23 on: December 11, 2007, 08:59:23 AM »

BRTD, the word you are looking for is 'zealots' not 'communists'. Seeing as that's the thing you're actually trying to get at, then in some cases yes. However, I don't believe the majority of his supporters are all that zealous - excited that there's a candidate that represents their views perhaps, but not zealous.
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« Reply #24 on: December 11, 2007, 09:21:40 AM »

No, the thing is that Paul is not a real leader for America.  He is a doctor from TX, what does he know about running the country other than his own beliefs.  Therefore it seems to me he just wants to push his crazy ideas(no matter how much people wish they would they will never work) on others.
Apparently you missed the "Congressman" part of his title. It seems to me that a successful doctor with political and military experience is more qualified and "in touch" with the majority of Americans than a lot of the people running for office now. As for pushing his "crazy ideas," the whole of his candidacy is that he's against the government forcing things on people.
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