Should opera houses receive public funds?/Should indie rock venues?

[dead0man]

I support the government subsidizing things I like.

At least you're honest

Thank you.  I admit my position is not ideological, just purely self-interested.  And I don't see a problem with that.  Too many people are blinded by anti-government ideology to see all the things the American taxpayer can do for them.

Being selfish and using the govt to take others property for your own benifits is perfectly reasonable belief if you acknowledge you do it?

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I could almost understand the defense of the govt giving resources to a Cajun art school that is the only one in the world that teaches a certain specific flavor of Cajun painting.  Or to pay Native Americans to do bead work or whatever.  I'd still might argue against it, but I could be convinced it's a good thing.  But Opera?  Do they support polo too?  Yachts?  Private Jets?  Canned hunts?  This is the govt subsidizing the wealthy and nothing more.  I don't understand why you guys on the left don't see that.

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

To the people who said Yes to either, but more directed to those who said yest to the latter.  Where do the funds stop?  Should I get public funds for having a monthly Battle of the Bands in my garage with 3 bands?

[Ebowed]

Should I get public funds for having a monthly Battle of the Bands in my garage with 3 bands?

That depends on whether you've applied for a grant and whether your garage exercise represent any great strides in artistic or creative merit.

[dead0man]

Should I get public funds for having a monthly Battle of the Bands in my garage with 3 bands?

That depends on whether you've applied for a grant and whether your garage exercise represent any great strides in artistic or creative merit.

And who makes that call?

[Ebowed]

Should I get public funds for having a monthly Battle of the Bands in my garage with 3 bands?

That depends on whether you've applied for a grant and whether your garage exercise represent any great strides in artistic or creative merit.

And who makes that call?

National Endowment for the Arts

[dead0man]

Should I get public funds for having a monthly Battle of the Bands in my garage with 3 bands?

That depends on whether you've applied for a grant and whether your garage exercise represent any great strides in artistic or creative merit.

And who makes that call?

National Endowment for the Arts

And if they only pick things to fund that only rich people like, everybody is ok with that?

[Gustaf]

Did you even read my post? I know you're a libertarian and won't agree with it, but as I said "The point of cultural support is to enable all people regardless of finanical means the opportunity to take part in certain aspects of culture, not to finance hobbies." So...they need government support. I'm not exactly understand how your post relates to mine or what point you're trying to make, but perhaps you can expand on it?

Why should the govt support something ONLY RICH PEOPLE GET TO SEE!  Did you even read my post?

The point of subsudizing it would be to make sure that not only rich people get to see it, as the subsidies would make the fares lower. For instance, I usually pay about 155 SEK ti visit the opera, roughly equal 2.50USD.

[dead0man]

You couldn't get a ticket to see a dog pee for $2.50 here   And even if tickets were that price, regular Americans still wouldn't go.  It's not fair for the govt to pay for something only a small percentage of the population cares about, ESPECIALLY if they are primarily from the wealthiest segment of that population.

[they don't love you like i love you]

One of the local theaters here is planning to simulcast 8 operas every Saturday over the next 8 weeks with an encore on Sunday. No doubt this happens in tons of places. The tickets are way higher than a normal movie ticket ($20 vs. $8), but still way cheaper than a normal opera ticket. So this does give non-wealthy types a way to sort of see the opera.

However, do you think we're going to see hordes of people flock to the theater for this or that it'll even sell out? I doubt it. Most Americans don't care about opera period. Hell to get me to go to an opera, you'd have to pay ME.

[Gustaf]

You couldn't get a ticket to see a dog pee for $2.50 here   And even if tickets were that price, regular Americans still wouldn't go.  It's not fair for the govt to pay for something only a small percentage of the population cares about, ESPECIALLY if they are primarily from the wealthiest segment of that population.

Sorry, that was a typo...it should have said 25 USD, I was in a hurry writing that. Anyway, that's about twice the cost of a cinema ticket here. So, it's affordable for most people. I'm not rich for instance, being a student, and few of my friends are, but we can still go.

I can only say that every opera performance I've been to has been sold out. Of course, they don't give that many. But the point is not who goes to it or anything like that. It's about the right to access certain parts of our cultural and literary heritage. It's basically the same as a public library or a museum.

[dead0man]

You couldn't get a ticket to see a dog pee for $2.50 here   And even if tickets were that price, regular Americans still wouldn't go.  It's not fair for the govt to pay for something only a small percentage of the population cares about, ESPECIALLY if they are primarily from the wealthiest segment of that population.

Sorry, that was a typo...it should have said 25 USD, I was in a hurry writing that. Anyway, that's about twice the cost of a cinema ticket here. So, it's affordable for most people. I'm not rich for instance, being a student, and few of my friends are, but we can still go.

I can only say that every opera performance I've been to has been sold out. Of course, they don't give that many. But the point is not who goes to it or anything like that. It's about the right to access certain parts of our cultural and literary heritage. It's basically the same as a public library or a museum.

Opera is not in the same class as public library's and museum's...at least not in the states.  Here it would be like the govt supporting polo or caviar farms. (they probably do)

[Nym90]

Case by case basis, depending on overall historical and artistic value of the venue. I voted yes/yes.

Yes, it's subjective, and the decision as to whether or not to fund a particular venue will sometimes not be correct or fair. But it's better that than denying all funding to the arts on the one hand, or simply handing government money to anyone who claims to be an artist on the other.

[Gustaf]

You couldn't get a ticket to see a dog pee for $2.50 here   And even if tickets were that price, regular Americans still wouldn't go.  It's not fair for the govt to pay for something only a small percentage of the population cares about, ESPECIALLY if they are primarily from the wealthiest segment of that population.

Sorry, that was a typo...it should have said 25 USD, I was in a hurry writing that. Anyway, that's about twice the cost of a cinema ticket here. So, it's affordable for most people. I'm not rich for instance, being a student, and few of my friends are, but we can still go.

I can only say that every opera performance I've been to has been sold out. Of course, they don't give that many. But the point is not who goes to it or anything like that. It's about the right to access certain parts of our cultural and literary heritage. It's basically the same as a public library or a museum.

Opera is not in the same class as public library's and museum's...at least not in the states.  Here it would be like the govt supporting polo or caviar farms. (they probably do)

Well...why not? Why would Tosca or Rigoletto or the Magic Flute be regarded as anything less than the great literary works? That, if anything, seems completely arbitrary to me. Do you think Shakespeare's plays are worth less than books too?

[dead0man]

Well...why not? Why would Tosca or Rigoletto or the Magic Flute be regarded as anything less than the great literary works? That, if anything, seems completely arbitrary to me. Do you think Shakespeare's plays are worth less than books too?

Because most Americans have no clue who Tosca or Rigoletto is.  We know who Shakespeare is.

But I don't think any artists should get funds from the state.  If we as a civilization are really gaining much from these things, they'll find a way to stick around.  Or they wont, because they aren't that important.  Lots and lots of what once where very important pieces of culture have past on because they became less and less important.  From Tosca to Abba.  What makes Opera more important to an American in 2007 than say, Polka?  I'm sure more Americans enjoy Polka over Opera.  What makes Opera as an art so special?  Because it's old and European?

But again, my biggest problem with it is that it's a rich mans thing.  Rich mans things shouldn't be supported by the govt, especially the Federal govt.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

IIRC Polka is about the same sort of age as Opera and, of course, came from Europe.

[dead0man]

IIRC Polka is about the same sort of age as Opera and, of course, came from Europe.

That was my point.  What makes one old European art better than the other and more in need of governmental help?

[Gustaf]

Well...why not? Why would Tosca or Rigoletto or the Magic Flute be regarded as anything less than the great literary works? That, if anything, seems completely arbitrary to me. Do you think Shakespeare's plays are worth less than books too?

Because most Americans have no clue who Tosca or Rigoletto is.  We know who Shakespeare is.

But I don't think any artists should get funds from the state.  If we as a civilization are really gaining much from these things, they'll find a way to stick around.  Or they wont, because they aren't that important.  Lots and lots of what once where very important pieces of culture have past on because they became less and less important.  From Tosca to Abba.  What makes Opera more important to an American in 2007 than say, Polka?  I'm sure more Americans enjoy Polka over Opera.  What makes Opera as an art so special?  Because it's old and European?

But again, my biggest problem with it is that it's a rich mans thing.  Rich mans things shouldn't be supported by the govt, especially the Federal govt.

I suppose ABBA was a jab at my nationality, but I don't think they're that dead (at least not more than most broken up bands after 30 years).

I see you're using the average American's knowledge as the measure of artistic value. This would of course place Britney Spears above Shakespeare too, but if you do believe that no artists should get state funds I guess you'll be fine with that. I won't deal with your belief that things that are important to society will automatically survive since I'm not Gabu and have a hard time finding the patience to argue things that are obvious. Perhaps you mean that things that cannot survive on a free market ought not exist or something along those lines but that is something quite different.

And opera is pretty special. It's different from any other art form, for instance, meaning that we would lose a cultural dimension in losing it.

And, finally, I don't get your whole "Rich man's" thing. Why would anything, given that it is financially available to everyone, be considered as specific for the wealthy? That makes no sense. Unless of course you're implying that only people with money can be sophisticated and enjoy a wider range of cultural experiences or something like that.

[dead0man]

(I wasn't making a jab at your nationality any more than you were for bring in up Spears.  Believe it or not, most Americans know she's a joke.  Even if just 5% of Americans care about her, that's still more than 15 million people that care.  The only reason I can think of that she is on the news so much (and Paris Hilton and Lohan and the rest) is that Americans LOVE to watch a train wreck, especially a slow one with big tits and lots of money.  I like Abba.  I like Sweden, it's a beautiful country that we plan on visiting when/if we ever get to Europe.)

I still don't understand what makes Opera better than Polka.  They are both "different" and if we lost either, it would certainly change both of our cultures.

I did just go price opera tickets and I was actually pleasantly surprised.  You can get tickets in the "Family Circle" (way up top, I have no problem with that) for as little $15 on a weeknight in NYC...so that is pretty cheap.  Much cheaper than I expected.  I'll concede that opera isn't only a rich man's thing.  My ignorance has been fought and I thank you liberals (and Google).

I still don't think the Federal govt should be supporting it (states and other local govts are fine by the way).

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

And opera is pretty special. It's different from any other art form, for instance, meaning that we would lose a cultural dimension in losing it.

How is opera a different form a Broadway musical?  Both are musical dramas.  The only differences I notice are the language that predominates and how long ago they were typically penned.

[Gustaf]

And opera is pretty special. It's different from any other art form, for instance, meaning that we would lose a cultural dimension in losing it.

How is opera a different form a Broadway musical?  Both are musical dramas.  The only differences I notice are the language that predominates and how long ago they were typically penned.

Opera is similar to musicals, yes. But in opera I'd say the music is much more at the core of the performace than is the case with the musical. Also, while most operas are tragedies dealing with heavier subjects most musicals are comedies. Not saying one is better than the other but the usage of music and the whole experience is very different.

dead0man: I hope you don't think I was offended, because I wasn't. Jokes about ABBA would be a very kind form of insult compared to a lot of what one can get here. And you should definitely come to Sweden, it's a nice country.

I realize that (hopefully) few people admire someone like Britney Spears but she does represent the kind of "art" that many people know and may listen to. My point was that I think the criteria you seem to be proposing are not very good, because the most known or most listened to are definitely not the best. Opera differs from polka because it has more artistic value. The latter is, after all, a dance not commonly used to express anything (it is, as far as I know at least, mostly just a dance you dance at parties and stuff). I'm also not aware of any great works of art in the polka sphere.

If you don't think the government should support art, that's fine. I wouldn't expect a libertarian to. But I do believe there would be a cost in that we would lose touch with an important part of our heritage and miss out on a way of understanding things.

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

Should I get public funds for having a monthly Battle of the Bands in my garage with 3 bands?

That depends on whether you've applied for a grant and whether your garage exercise represent any great strides in artistic or creative merit.

And who makes that call?

National Endowment for the Arts

And if they only pick things to fund that only rich people like, everybody is ok with that?

No response Ebowed?...

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

And opera is pretty special. It's different from any other art form, for instance, meaning that we would lose a cultural dimension in losing it.

How is opera a different form a Broadway musical?  Both are musical dramas.  The only differences I notice are the language that predominates and how long ago they were typically penned.

Opera is similar to musicals, yes. But in opera I'd say the music is much more at the core of the performance than is the case with the musical. Also, while most operas are tragedies dealing with heavier subjects most musicals are comedies. Not saying one is better than the other but the usage of music and the whole experience is very different.

Tell me, would you consider operettas such as those by Gilbert & Sullivan or by Strauss to be opera or not?  What about Porgy and Bess, Candide,  Jesus Christ Superstar or Evita?  And what about opera buffas such as Don Giovanni, The Barber of Seville, and Falstaff?  Other than the lack of spoken dialogue (a trait used by some Broadway musicals) I'd say your definition is highly subjective, but then I doubt that any definition trying to demark which musical dramas are opera could be anything other than subjective.

[Mr. Paleoconservative]

No/No.  The government should have no role in subsidizing either.  The government has more important things to do than pay the bills of "artists" very few are willing to personally pay to see. 

[Gustaf]

And opera is pretty special. It's different from any other art form, for instance, meaning that we would lose a cultural dimension in losing it.

How is opera a different form a Broadway musical?  Both are musical dramas.  The only differences I notice are the language that predominates and how long ago they were typically penned.

Opera is similar to musicals, yes. But in opera I'd say the music is much more at the core of the performance than is the case with the musical. Also, while most operas are tragedies dealing with heavier subjects most musicals are comedies. Not saying one is better than the other but the usage of music and the whole experience is very different.

Tell me, would you consider operettas such as those by Gilbert & Sullivan or by Strauss to be opera or not?  What about Porgy and Bess, Candide,  Jesus Christ Superstar or Evita?  And what about opera buffas such as Don Giovanni, The Barber of Seville, and Falstaff?  Other than the lack of spoken dialogue (a trait used by some Broadway musicals) I'd say your definition is highly subjective, but then I doubt that any definition trying to demark which musical dramas are opera could be anything other than subjective.

Operettas is, I believe, considered a different genre (though I'll admit to not being an expert on those). I'm not claiming to have constructed a perfect definition. Most definitions when it comes to art have grey zones between them. I would, however, still stand by my opinion that the artistic experience of watching Singin in the Rain on the one hand and Rigoletto on the other are very, very different. Granted, the difference between something like Sound of Music and The Magic Flute isn't enormous, I'll give you that.

[Starbucks Union Thug HokeyPuck]

No/No.  It is not my job to prop up entertainment that can not survive on its own.