After 400 year hiatus Catholicism is once again most popular in England

[12th Doctor]

The day is ours.


Guess who's back
Back again
The Pope is back
Tell a friend

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 Catholicism now Britain's "most popular" faith


http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20071223/ts_nm/britain_catholicism_dc

 LONDON (Reuters) - Catholics have overtaken Anglicans in church attendance in Britain, according to research published on Sunday.

England officially split from Rome during the reign of Henry VIII more than 400 years ago, making Anglicanism and the Church of England dominant.

But a survey by the group Christian Research published in the Sunday Telegraph newspaper showed that around 862,000 worshippers attended Catholic services each week in 2006 exceeding the 852,000 who went to the Church of England.

The release of the figures followed news that former prime minister Tony Blair, who was raised an Anglican, had converted to Catholicism, joining his wife and four children who are devout Catholics.

Attendance at Anglican services has almost halved over the past 40 years as Britain has grown steadily more secular. Only 6 percent of the population attends church regularly. In the United States, that figure is nearer 40 percent.

While attendance figures for both Catholic and Anglican services are declining, Catholic numbers are slipping by less as new migrants arrive from east Europe and parts of Africa, boosting Catholic congregations.

Catholic leaders were buoyed by the figures, and Blair's high-profile conversion, seeing a resurgence of Catholic popularity in a country which once spurned the religion.

"When a former prime minister becomes a Catholic, that must be a sign that Catholicism really has come in from the cold in this country," Catherine Pepinster, the editor of Catholic weekly The Tablet, wrote in the Sunday Telegraph.

"I would hope that my fellow Catholics will welcome Tony Blair into the Church as they welcome other converts."

Blair, now a Middle East peace envoy, is not the first high-profile Briton to convert to Catholicism.

The author Evelyn Waugh, the son of an Anglican churchman, converted in the 1930s, and novelist Graham Greene was a noted convert, although his books often explored doubts over faith.

Blair's conversion was long expected but it has not come without a degree of criticism.

While in office, he frequently championed stem-cell research, was in support of civil partnerships for gay couples and has voted in favor of abortion, all issues on which the Catholic faithful hold strong positions.

Politicians, including some who have converted themselves, didn't question the sincerity of the conversion, made in a private ceremony on Friday, but wondered what it said about the stances he had taken on issues while in office.

Mostly though, the reaction was muted.

"In the 19th century when someone 'poped' it caused great scandal," wrote the Right Reverend Richard Harries, a former bishop of Oxford, in the Observer newspaper.

"But in recent decades a fundamental shift has taken place ... If someone shifts their allegiance, well, as Jesus said, 'there are many dwelling places in my father's house'."

[J. J.]

The way it's going you'll two churches to my one.  And that's just it, two Catholic Church to one Anglican one. 

[afleitch]

Nonsense

If we were to equate religious adherence to church/mosque attendance Islam would be the biggest faith in huges swathes of the cities. CofE is still by far the largest faith when it comes to those who confess to adhere to it just as CofS is in Scotland though Catholic service attendance has outstripped it for years.

The fact the figures for church attendance are so low should be the concern.

[Gabu]

But a survey by the group Christian Research published in the Sunday Telegraph newspaper showed that around 862,000 worshippers attended Catholic services each week in 2006 exceeding the 852,000 who went to the Church of England.

Given that the population of the United Kingdom is 60,776,238, those are not exactly numbers for either side to be proud of if their goal is to get everyone to church.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Actually more people have been going to Catholic services than Anglican ones for about (or at least?) ten years now; and more people go to non-Anglican Protestant services than Catholic.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

But a survey by the group Christian Research published in the Sunday Telegraph newspaper showed that around 862,000 worshippers attended Catholic services each week in 2006 exceeding the 852,000 who went to the Church of England.

Given that the population of the United Kingdom is 60,776,238, those are not exactly numbers for either side to be proud of if their goal is to get everyone to church.

True. The funny thing is that on one level religious demographics haven't changed in sixty years (1978 Mass Observation thingy showed around 75% of the population at least slightly religious; figure has remained pretty stable over the six decades after then). The Churches can't really blame the outside forces of secularisation for their decline, the answer is closer to home (especially as regards the CofE. Anyone who's been to an Anglican service in the past few decades will understand what I mean here...)

[afleitch]

But a survey by the group Christian Research published in the Sunday Telegraph newspaper showed that around 862,000 worshippers attended Catholic services each week in 2006 exceeding the 852,000 who went to the Church of England.

Given that the population of the United Kingdom is 60,776,238, those are not exactly numbers for either side to be proud of if their goal is to get everyone to church.

True. The funny thing is that on one level religious demographics haven't changed in sixty years (1978 Mass Observation thingy showed around 75% of the population at least slightly religious; figure has remained pretty stable over the six decades after then). The Churches can't really blame the outside forces of secularisation for their decline, the answer is closer to home (especially as regards the CofE. Anyone who's been to an Anglican service in the past few decades will understand what I mean here...)

My own view is that churches are ultimately responsible for their own decline. They have not responded to the decline in the need for observers to attend a 'community' church service on a weekly basis. Those who have taken note often propose the completely opposite solution to what is required; saying churches need to me more 'hardline' to win people back. Nonsense.

The Catholic Church has suffered a detachment from lay Catholics who do not personally uphold or support aspects of Church moral and social teaching and would probably admit to not subscribing to the doctrine of Papal supremacy or infallability (which technically would make them 'protestants') In various Social Attitudes surveys north and south of the border, Catholics tend to hold on to more liberal views on contraception, divorce, gays and even abortion than many other faiths despite their Church upholding some of the most conservative doctrine.

It makes it increasingly difficult for the Church to maintain both worshippers and attract men to the seminaries. The Church is a victim of its own stubborness. The 'solid as a rock, infallable' Church however has overturned more doctrine in the past 40 years than it did in the past 400, yet it wouldn't admit to that. Purgatory was abolished (after which the Church was still 'infallable') in order to help win the hearts and minds of potential members in the developing world with it's high infant mortality rate.

The CofE, as an outsider looking in is spineless in standing up to the demands of African churches (despite holding the purse strings) and is more interested in maintaining the Communion and the robes of office than theological advancement.

[The Man From G.O.P.]

Stupid article fails to realize no faith is the most popular in England, any word on when Islam passes them?

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Stupid article fails to realize no faith is the most popular in England,

At the last census only 14.6% of people in England claimed that they had no religion (over 70% claimed to be Christians).

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Only 3% of people in England said they were Muslim.

[Joe Republic]

That Tony Blair is such a trend-setter.

[Хahar 🤔]

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Only 3% of people in England said they were Muslim.

But they all go to mosque.

[Hatman 🍁]

Oh no, hell has frozen over. I guess you Catholics will have to buy some skates

[Richard]

Hide your sons... :S

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

The day is ours.

hate to shake you up, but you really need to visit England.  It is awash in accepting sexual immorality.  So, it doesn't seem to me that is practicing Catholic doctrine.

"For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord." (Jude 4)

[Tetro Kornbluth]

Wow.. is church attendance really that low - I mean I knew it was miniscule; but less than a million Anglicans? Despite everything I find this hard to believe.

The day is ours.

hate to shake you up, but you really need to visit England.  It is awash in accepting sexual immorality.  So, it doesn't seem to me that is practicing Catholic doctrine.

"For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord." (Jude 4)

Shockingly for everyone, Jmfcst is the first to mention "sexual immorality" in this thread.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

hate to shake you up, but you really need to visit England.  It is awash in accepting sexual immorality.  So, it doesn't seem to me that is practicing Catholic doctrine.

"For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord." (Jude 4)

Shockingly for everyone, Jmfcst is the first to mention "sexual immorality" in this thread.

yeah, isn't troubling that more posters on this forum don't shun and flee from sexual immorality?

[Hash]

hate to shake you up, but you really need to visit England.  It is awash in accepting sexual immorality.  So, it doesn't seem to me that is practicing Catholic doctrine.

"For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord." (Jude 4)

Shockingly for everyone, Jmfcst is the first to mention "sexual immorality" in this thread.

yeah, isn't troubling that more posters on this forum don't shun and flee from sexual immorality?

Most posters aren't ultra-right wing fundies maybe?

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

hate to shake you up, but you really need to visit England.  It is awash in accepting sexual immorality.  So, it doesn't seem to me that is practicing Catholic doctrine.

"For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord." (Jude 4)

Shockingly for everyone, Jmfcst is the first to mention "sexual immorality" in this thread.

yeah, isn't troubling that more posters on this forum don't shun and flee from sexual immorality?

Most posters aren't ultra-right wing fundies maybe?

Well, if that is the definition for those that shun and flee from sexual immorality, then I guess Jesus and all the writers of the bible were "ultra-right wing fundies"...so thanks for the complement, for I definitely want to be in their number.

[Јas]

Wow.. is church attendance really that low - I mean I knew it was miniscule; but less than a million Anglicans? Despite everything I find this hard to believe.

The day is ours.

hate to shake you up, but you really need to visit England.  It is awash in accepting sexual immorality.  So, it doesn't seem to me that is practicing Catholic doctrine.

"For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord." (Jude 4)

Shockingly for everyone, Jmfcst is the first to mention "sexual immorality" in this thread.

I think I had Friday in the pool.

[Bono]

hate to shake you up, but you really need to visit England.  It is awash in accepting sexual immorality. 

Hmm, does this explain your frequent visits?

[Јas]

hate to shake you up, but you really need to visit England.  It is awash in accepting sexual immorality.  So, it doesn't seem to me that is practicing Catholic doctrine.

"For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord." (Jude 4)

Shockingly for everyone, Jmfcst is the first to mention "sexual immorality" in this thread.

yeah, isn't troubling that more posters on this forum don't shun and flee from sexual immorality?

Most posters aren't ultra-right wing fundies maybe?

Well, if that is the definition for those that shun and flee from sexual immorality, then I guess Jesus and all the writers of the bible were "ultra-right wing fundies"...so thanks for the complement, for I definitely want to be in their number.

And here was me thinking Jesus spoke about forgiveness an love and such (not things one tends to associate with 'right wing fundies'). I don't recall him advocating shunning and fleeing much myself (things one does tend to associate with 'right wing fundies').

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Wow.. is church attendance really that low - I mean I knew it was miniscule; but less than a million Anglicans? Despite everything I find this hard to believe.

Ever been to a CofE service? Do that and you'll understand everything regarding this issue.

Oh and there are far more than a million Anglicans here. Just that the overwhelming majority have no interest in going to church every week more than, at most, once or twice a year (three times, maybe, in rural areas).

[minionofmidas]

Wow.. is church attendance really that low - I mean I knew it was miniscule; but less than a million Anglicans? Despite everything I find this hard to believe.

Ever been to a CofE service? Do that and you'll understand everything regarding this issue.

Oh and there are far more than a million Anglicans here. Just that the overwhelming majority have no interest in going to church every week more than, at most, once or twice a year (three times, maybe, in rural areas).

Yeah. So weekly attendance is not part of the definition of Being a Good Christian anymore, at least not in the major churches in western Europe. Big deal.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

And here was me thinking Jesus spoke about forgiveness an love and such

[/quote]

yes, that is the "GRACE" part

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I don't recall him advocating shunning and fleeing much myself (things one does tend to associate with 'right wing fundies').

that's because you turn his Grace into a licence for immorality, just as Jude 4 predicted.

"For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord." (Jude 4)

Here is Jesus talking about the sin of sexual immorality:

Matthew 15:19
For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander.

Mark 7:21
For from within, out of men's hearts, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery,

And here is a sampling of other verses relating to the same topic in the New Testament:

Acts 15:20
Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood.

Acts 15:29
You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things. Farewell.

Acts 21:25
As for the Gentile believers, we have written to them our decision that they should abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality."

Romans 13:13
Let us behave decently, as in the daytime, not in orgies and drunkenness, not in sexual immorality and debauchery, not in dissension and jealousy.

1 Corinthians 5:1
It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that does not occur even among pagans: A man has his father's wife.

1 Corinthians 5:9
I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people—

1 Corinthians 5:11
But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat.

1 Corinthians 6:9
Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders

1 Corinthians 6:12
[ Sexual Immorality ] "Everything is permissible for me"—but not everything is beneficial. "Everything is permissible for me"—but I will not be mastered by anything.

1 Corinthians 6:13
"Food for the stomach and the stomach for food"—but God will destroy them both. The body is not meant for sexual immorality, but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body.

1 Corinthians 6:18
Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a man commits are outside his body, but he who sins sexually sins against his own body.

1 Corinthians 10:8
We should not commit sexual immorality, as some of them did—and in one day twenty-three thousand of them died.

Galatians 5:19
The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery;

Ephesians 5:3
But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God's holy people.

Colossians 3:5
Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry.

1 Thessalonians 4:3
It is God's will that you should be sanctified: that you should avoid sexual immorality;

Hebrews 12:16
See that no one is sexually immoral, or is godless like Esau, who for a single meal sold his inheritance rights as the oldest son.

Hebrews 13:4
Marriage should be honored by all, and the marriage bed kept pure, for God will judge the adulterer and all the sexually immoral.

Jude 1:7
In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

Revelation 2:14
Nevertheless, I have a few things against you: You have people there who hold to the teaching of Balaam, who taught Balak to entice the Israelites to sin by eating food sacrificed to idols and by committing sexual immorality.

Revelation 2:20
Nevertheless, I have this against you: You tolerate that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess. By her teaching she misleads my servants into sexual immorality and the eating of food sacrificed to idols.

Revelation 9:21
Nor did they repent of their murders, their magic arts, their sexual immorality or their thefts.

[Јas]

And here was me thinking Jesus spoke about forgiveness an love and such

yes, that is the "GRACE" part

---

I don't recall him advocating shunning and fleeing much myself (things one does tend to associate with 'right wing fundies').

that's because you turn his Grace into a licence for immorality, just as Jude 4 predicted.

"For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord." (Jude 4)

Wow, Jude really hit the nail on the head there didn't he. It's amazing that he predicted that at some point in the future, someone might not fully agree with the official line.

Anyway, I don't necessarily agree that this passage really covers the present case: I don't agree that I advocate immorality, but the more pertinant point is that I don't advocate anything on the basis of what God or Jesus said/did/suggested/whatever.

Here is Jesus talking about the sin of sexual immorality:

Matthew 15:19
For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander.

Mark 7:21
For from within, out of men's hearts, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery,

First, as stated (or at least infered) before, I only directed my remarks about that which is attributed to Jesus, so I'll leave aside St. Paul et al. Given that we have essentially the above which is essentially the same remark (IIRC Matthew's Gospel is largely a copy of Mark's?...anyway, I digress).

With regards to sexual morality, Jesus doesn't give any indication of what's included. I don't deny that there are immoral sexual acts, for all I know Jesus's position could have been in sync with mine or with yours or with neither - who knows?

Nor does Jesus mention shunning or fleeing here. As I recall, Jesus was keen on meeting sinners nor shunning them; certainly not fleeing from them.

All in all, I don't see how the quote supports your position in any way, shape or form.