Should we blame Ronald Reagan for the state of the GOP today?
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  Should we blame Ronald Reagan for the state of the GOP today?
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Question: Should we blame Ronald Reagan for the state of the GOP today?
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Author Topic: Should we blame Ronald Reagan for the state of the GOP today?  (Read 4315 times)
Robespierre's Jaw
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« on: December 28, 2007, 08:48:58 PM »

For some bizzare reason when I was at the Supermarket today I was thinking about this question. Should we blame Ronald Reagan for the state of the GOP today? I say yes we should. I'll list more reasons later.
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dead0man
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« Reply #1 on: December 28, 2007, 09:04:35 PM »

Maybe a little, but nowhere near as much as W. Bush has.  Add in all the lesser scandals the Republican Party has had the last decade or so and any damage you might be able to pin on Reagan is still far far overshadowed by the demons of today.
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J. J.
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« Reply #2 on: December 28, 2007, 09:49:54 PM »

I think there is very little to blame Reagan for on the current state of the GOP.
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Lief 🗽
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« Reply #3 on: December 28, 2007, 09:52:55 PM »

I'd say Newt Gingrich is actually more to blame.
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jokerman
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« Reply #4 on: December 28, 2007, 10:36:47 PM »

I'd say Newt Gingrich is actually more to blame.
Definitely more so than Reagan.  If we're blaming Reagan we might as well blame Goldwater.
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Kevin
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« Reply #5 on: December 28, 2007, 11:29:34 PM »
« Edited: January 12, 2008, 09:51:01 PM by Kevin »

I'd say Newt Gingrich is actually more to blame.
Definitely more so than Reagan.  If we're blaming Reagan we might as well blame Goldwater.

Reagan was ok and Goldwater was someone who was a step in the right direction, I think Gingrich represented competent policymaking and Bush just represents horrible incompetent governance and is responsible for the current state of the GOP.   
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NDN
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« Reply #6 on: December 28, 2007, 11:41:42 PM »
« Edited: December 28, 2007, 11:45:15 PM by Temporary Republican »

Of course we should. Reagan pretty much created the current GOP's unholy axis of fundamentalist lunatics, neo-con warmongers and crackpot pseudo-free market 'tax cut' fanatics. Also Bush is pretty much the logical conclusion of the party embracing his optimistic (to the point of being self-deluding), 'facts are stupid things' philosophy of politicking.
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Beet
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« Reply #7 on: December 29, 2007, 12:08:32 AM »

Of course we should. Reagan pretty much created the current GOP's unholy axis of fundamentalist lunatics, neo-con warmongers and crackpot pseudo-free market 'tax cut' fanatics. Also Bush is pretty much the logical conclusion of the party embracing his optimistic (to the point of being self-deluding), 'facts are stupid things' philosophy of politicking.

There's nothing wrong with optimism. Ever hear of seeing the forest for the trees? Sometimes focusing too hard on 'facts' can have that effect on people. That's not to say that facts can be ignored of course, but one must always approach forward thinking with an a priori positive bias. How many people thought that communism could be defeated? In that sense Reagan and FDR were alike; they both emphasized the power of positive thinking, while remaining maturely grounded in reality that showed in more quiet, subtle ways.

I do agree with your broader point though; Reagan is such an important historical figure in creating what the GOP is today that anything it has become undeniably bears a large part of his fingerprint. The dark side of Reagan was always his uncompromising ideological stance and the excesses of the movement that backed him. When Reagan left office, he took with him the charisma, the sunny optimism, and the powerful synthesis of man and history that fit together well in that decade of the 1980's, but bequeathed on the nation a strong, mature political movement of conservative reaction convinced of its righteousness and willing to go very far to get what it wanted.
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NDN
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« Reply #8 on: December 29, 2007, 12:16:11 AM »
« Edited: December 29, 2007, 12:18:48 AM by Temporary Republican »

I have nothing against being optimistic. The problem is that Reagan was pathological in his optimism, beyond even just having 'rose tinted glasses.' The homeless? They were that way by choice, nothing to worry about. Black people? Racism isn't that big of a problem, really! Environment? You don't have to worry about it, after all trees cause pollution. The list goes on and on. Reagan (and the GOP) went beyond simply disagreeing with the left about how to solve America's problems -- he actively denied we actually had a lot of societal problems. The results have been nothing less than disastrous.
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Beet
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« Reply #9 on: December 29, 2007, 12:27:37 AM »

I have nothing against being optimistic. The problem is that Reagan was pathological in his optimism, beyond even just having 'rose tinted glasses.' The homeless? They were that way by choice, nothing to worry about. Black people? Racism isn't that big of a problem, really! Environment? You don't have to worry about it, after all trees cause pollution. The list goes on and on. Reagan (and the GOP) went beyond simply disagreeing with the left about how to solve America's problems -- he actively denied we actually had a lot of societal problems. The results have been nothing less than disastrous.

The homeless, black people, the environment... people on the margins of society, or concerns on the margins of society. Who cares if the corners of the pie are cut, as long as the middle is delicious? The liberals' problem in the 1980's is that they tried to focus too much on the fringes and not enough on the creamy center.

Seriously... my ideal combination is one of liberal concerns with positive attitudes, the same combination that FDR brought to the Presidency. Perhaps I should switch my support over to Senator Obama? Well, regardless of who the Democrats nominate I hope they believe in hope!
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NDN
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« Reply #10 on: December 29, 2007, 12:37:30 AM »

Those are just some examples. You're right that the majority didn't perceive those problems as directly effecting them so much as current problems like Healthcare now. That doesn't mean that his approach of denial wasn't any less bad however. You can't debate or remedy issues if one side flat out refuses to acknowledge them.
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Robespierre's Jaw
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« Reply #11 on: December 29, 2007, 02:00:07 AM »

I have nothing against being optimistic. The problem is that Reagan was pathological in his optimism, beyond even just having 'rose tinted glasses.' The homeless? They were that way by choice, nothing to worry about. Black people? Racism isn't that big of a problem, really! Environment? You don't have to worry about it, after all trees cause pollution. The list goes on and on. Reagan (and the GOP) went beyond simply disagreeing with the left about how to solve America's problems -- he actively denied we actually had a lot of societal problems. The results have been nothing less than disastrous.

I concur with NDN. The Republican Party was once a polar opposite of what it is today. I am sure if Teddy Roosevelt was to wake from the dead and walk upon this planet he wouldn't recognize the Party. He would probably think that the Democratic Party is the new Republican Party and in a sense it is.
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NDN
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« Reply #12 on: December 29, 2007, 02:54:25 AM »
« Edited: December 29, 2007, 03:06:42 AM by Temporary Republican »

Well, maybe authoritarian trend given that the "tax-cut" crowd is still barely hanging on.
Well it depends on who you're talking about. Some of the tax cutting crowd are sincere fiscal conservatives, for good and for ill. Others are hacks who will bitch and moan about 'welfare handouts' and regulations, while adopting formerly keynesian/liberal ideas like tax cuts (without spending cuts), massive subsidies (for big business), etc.  These people don't care about 'capitalism' or any of the other pretty buzzwords they repeat ad nauseum so much as just being well off themselves. They're not necessarily authoritarian, but they're definitely hypocritical parasites.

And let's not even mention the 'Starve the Beast' types, they're even more devious (and may just accomplish their goal)...
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NDN
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« Reply #13 on: December 29, 2007, 03:10:09 AM »

I'd say Newt Gingrich is actually more to blame.
Nothing Newt thought up wasn't already in vogue by the time Reagan was in office. The difference is that unlike Reagan, he was actually a pretty competent person.
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dead0man
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« Reply #14 on: December 29, 2007, 04:29:27 AM »

Here's a theory:

The Democrat and Republican Parties used to both be full of Christians of all stripes.  Fundies and non-Fundies, together.  Some leaned an empathetic or Socialist way, others a more self reliant or Libertarian way.  The former voted Democrat, the latter Republican.  As the Democrats slowly became the Party of Civil and Women's rights (and other left leaning platforms), the Fundies couldn't stay (maybe because they're racist bigots, I don't know) and left in mass to the GOP.  Reagan wasn't a religious man, he used the religious.  He was the first Republican to really take advantage of it.  His Vice President's son took it a step further.  Huckabee is looking to take the next one.  The rest of the GOP is, we can hope, not going to let that happen.

Blaming Reagan for the current state of the GOP is on par with claiming Reagan single handedly won the Cold War.  You can make a decent argument for either, but they both come up way short when other facts are considered.  In my opinion at least.
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opebo
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« Reply #15 on: December 29, 2007, 10:52:14 AM »

Blame the american people.. at least the ones who voted for him.
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« Reply #16 on: December 29, 2007, 12:41:45 PM »

I'd say Newt Gingrich is actually more to blame.
Definitely more so than Reagan.  If we're blaming Reagan we might as well blame Goldwater.

I totally agree.  Reagan was willing to work with Democrats to find solutions; Gingrich only cared about winning elections.  Gingrich shut down the federal government because Clinton made him sit in the back of an airplane!  Even though I am not a huge fan of Reagan, he had some decency.  Newt Gingrich lacks anything even close to decency.
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« Reply #17 on: December 30, 2007, 05:59:01 PM »

Yes. I think Watergate was terrible for America in more days than one.
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afleitch
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« Reply #18 on: December 30, 2007, 06:13:19 PM »

The finger of blame should not be pointed at those who act, but those who failed to act. Mainstream Republicans from voters to party volunteers to elected officials are to blame for lacking a backbone these past 30 years and allowing the religious and ideological extremists to dictate the direction of the GOP.

The one man who represents this inertia more than any? Step forward 'Mr 180 degrees' Mitt Romney
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Lief 🗽
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« Reply #19 on: December 30, 2007, 06:25:10 PM »

It's not that Republicans and conservatives didn't want the fundamentalists in their party; the opposite, really. The Christians gave the Republican party power, and they realized this: Nixon first with his Southern strategy, then Reagan further embraced them, and then Gingrich, Delay and Bush embraced them further. The extremists were used as a vehicle for winning elections. Sometimes they were thrown some scraps as the Republican party gorged itself on its new found power, but most of the rewards went to the economic conservatives, to Wall Street, to big business. It's only now, with Bush and then Huckabee, that the evangelicals and the religious extremists are actually taking over the party, and the party officials, who couldn't care less about the needs of what they see as backwards hicks, have no idea what to do.
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bullmoose88
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« Reply #20 on: December 30, 2007, 06:40:51 PM »

You guys aren't looking back enough...look at Nixon, Goldwater (to some extent, while he wasn't a wacko himself, they certainly looked at the GOP differently after his campaign)...and most importantly, the architect of the southern strategy...Lee Atwater.
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12th Doctor
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« Reply #21 on: December 30, 2007, 06:51:35 PM »

Reagan was very idealistic in the way he saw America.  Sometimes that was a bad things, sometimes it was wonderful.  Reagan made people believe that America was great, and that was a good thing, but once he was gone, and people who didn't share his idealism or intent took over, it has caused major problems for the GOP.  The current push of the Religious Right, in particular, is not what Reagan would have wanted.  He believed in an America where everyone had strong personal morals, not one where they tried to legislate their morality into being.
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12th Doctor
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« Reply #22 on: December 30, 2007, 06:54:22 PM »

I'd say Newt Gingrich is actually more to blame.
Nothing Newt thought up wasn't already in vogue by the time Reagan was in office. The difference is that unlike Reagan, he was actually a pretty competent person.

Hey Mr. Ron Paul Revolutionary, are you aware that it is Ron Paul who we have to thank for Reagan?  Ron Paul was one of Reagan's earliest and biggest supporters.  I guess Dr. Paul must have bad judgment then.
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NDN
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« Reply #23 on: December 30, 2007, 11:54:36 PM »

I'd say Newt Gingrich is actually more to blame.
Nothing Newt thought up wasn't already in vogue by the time Reagan was in office. The difference is that unlike Reagan, he was actually a pretty competent person.

Hey Mr. Ron Paul Revolutionary, are you aware that it is Ron Paul who we have to thank for Reagan?  Ron Paul was one of Reagan's earliest and biggest supporters.  I guess Dr. Paul must have bad judgment then.
Sure, and Reagan praised Paul. Doesn't matter a whole lot to me, especially since Paul doesn't make a lot of excuses for him.
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Brandon H
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« Reply #24 on: December 31, 2007, 02:36:22 PM »

Paul supported Reagan the candidate, especially compared to Ford, but as a President he considered Reagan a failure. Watch the video of Paul on Meet The Press from last week.

I think we can blame George W. Bush and some of his advisers for where the GOP is today.
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