Most conservative Western country

[Bono]

You forget that Bono is Bono. At a guess he's defining "left" as meaning "more state control" and "right" as meaning "less state control".

So... he's defining "conservative" as "left-wing", or what?

I can't see any metric or definition of "conservative" whatsoever that would make Canada in the contest for the most conservative Western country.

Well, the number of days to starting a business is only 3--compare with 5 on the US. Your overall weighted tariff rate is only 0.9%, compared with 1.7% in the US. Your top income tax rate is less than the US one, AND you have less brackets, meaning the tax is flatter. However, it's true that tax revenue as a share of GDP is higher in Canada (likely due to the national VAT which Steven Harper promised to abolish and then raised *ahem*). Your labor market flexibility, while not beating the US's, is still in the top 20. And your Provinces have much more power than US states (possibly the only federal entities with a comparable level of self-government are Swiss cantons). The only issue where you're actually significantly to the left of the US is health care, and even then you're now moving away from single payer (I'm not aying you're moving away from universal coverage, note).

[Tetro Kornbluth]

You forget that Bono is Bono. At a guess he's defining "left" as meaning "more state control" and "right" as meaning "less state control".

So... he's defining "conservative" as "left-wing", or what?

I can't see any metric or definition of "conservative" whatsoever that would make Canada in the contest for the most conservative Western country.

Well, the number of days to starting a business is only 3--compare with 5 on the US. Your overall weighted tariff rate is only 0.9%, compared with 1.7% in the US. Your top income tax rate is less than the US one, AND you have less brackets, meaning the tax is flatter. However, it's true that tax revenue as a share of GDP is higher in Canada (likely due to the national VAT which Steven Harper promised to abolish and then raised *ahem*). Your labor market flexibility, while not beating the US's, is still in the top 20. And your Provinces have much more power than US states (possibly the only federal entities with a comparable level of self-government are Swiss cantons). The only issue where you're actually significantly to the left of the US is health care, and even then you're now moving away from single payer (I'm not aying you're moving away from universal coverage, note).

Yes but what does this have to do with Conservatism. I always believed that conservatism was about preserving "traditional" values and stuff. It's also very funny how being against protectionism is now considered "conservative".

[Willy Woz]

Jas is from Monaghan.

Then I don't get why he's so delusional about his own country. (although I would guess it's more him stereotyping the US than anything else)

FTR, I'm not arguing that the US is the most conservative country in the West. Mostly because I don't there's a definitive answer to this sort of question. Of course there are conservatives and conservative policies and laws here; but there are similarly liberals and liberal policies and laws. I'd find it very hard to believe that this is the most conservative nation in the western world - but it's all in how you frame the question I suppose and just what exactly the indicators of being conservative are.

Anyway, as Al pointed out, I'm from Monaghan (actually here at the moment), which you as a clear expert on the nation will know is one of the more conservative parts of the country. I've been living in Dublin for the most of the past year and half; before that I was in Galway for the previous 4 - and of course I've been around many other parts over the years. I suspect my interactions with my fellow Irish somewhat outnumber your encounters, though I'll grant that I don't tend to jump into questions on political philosophy with most. I do though take an interest in politics, elections, polls and such, so I'd suggest I'm not terribly deluded about these things.

Of course you do realize Dublin and Galway are the two most liberal cities in Ireland. You probably were not even all that political while in Monaghan. I would say all in all, Ireland and the US are pretty much the same; but rural Western Ireland (particularly in the bog lands and around Mayo, Donegal, or Limerick) are more conservative than much of rural America.

[Tetro Kornbluth]

I've ignored the whole "Ireland" debate in this thread but I have point out what "conservatism" means in Ireland and "conservatism" means in America are two very different things. For a start most Catholic conservatives (note: Most) that I know of in Ireland are very anti neo-liberal.

Also I don't think Ireland is an ideologically conservative country, because Ireland isn't an ideological country (well maybe within the "perceived" Dublin 4 but nowhere else.) and while Divorce was illegal until 1995 and Abortion still is I think it is important to point out that the arguements often used against both Divorce and Abortion have (usually) been secular and based on compassionate ("Don't let Children lose their parents, etc) arguements rather than ideological right-wing ones.

Actually the emergence of a very small conservative catholic movement (see: Justin Barrett or this now thankfully it seems defunct Internet Magazine) came about with the rise  of a more liberal mentality in Ireland in the 1990s (well actually I would argue that but this is the "consensus" view of history here, plus I'm summarizing and ergo simplifying.) which also coincided with the emergence of a more globalized and American style economy. See why the majority of conservative catholics don't like the Celtic Tiger much?

[Willy Woz]

I've ignored the whole "Ireland" debate in this thread but I have point out what "conservatism" means in Ireland and "conservatism" means in America are two very different things. For a start most Catholic conservatives (note: Most) that I know of in Ireland are very anti neo-liberal.

Also I don't think Ireland is an ideologically conservative country, because Ireland isn't an ideological country (well maybe within the "perceived" Dublin 4 but nowhere else.) and while Divorce was illegal until 1995 and Abortion still is I think it is important to point out that the arguements often used against both Divorce and Abortion have (usually) been secular and based on compassionate ("Don't let Children lose their parents, etc) arguements rather than ideological right-wing ones.

Actually the emergence of a very small conservative catholic movement (see: Justin Barrett or this now thankfully it seems defunct Internet Magazine) came about with the rise  of a more liberal mentality in Ireland in the 1990s (well actually I would argue that but this is the "consensus" view of history here, plus I'm summarizing and ergo simplifying.) which also coincided with the emergence of a more globalized and American style economy. See why the majority of conservative catholics don't like the Celtic Tiger much?

There is obviously a religious strain because of Ireland's high church attendance

[afleitch]

Definitions please folks - social, economically or both?

Secondly, the laws of a state do not necessary reflect, indeed often lag behind the positions of the public. In some countries the opposite may be true. All I'm saying is, don't look at Irelands statute book to try and define how 'conservative' a society it is as it paints a different picture.

[Willy Woz]

I would say all in all, Ireland and the US are pretty much the same;

Really? Depends how you mean. Politically, I don't think so. Far from it, in fact.

but rural Western Ireland (particularly in the bog lands and around Mayo, Donegal, or Limerick) are more conservative than much of rural America.

Depends what you mean and what you use as the markers of conservatism.

So you're saying you think Ireland is more liberal than the US? How would you even know in most ways?

And by conservatism I mean the people are more traditionalist, anti-modern, anti-far left, and so on.

[Willy Woz]

I think it's fair to say that traditionalism has been dying  in Ireland (with increasing alacrity) for the past 40 years.

Anti-far left depends on what you define as the far left. If an American Presidential candidate came out, for example, for universal health care; free third level education with grant funding; civil partnerships; regular increases to the minimum wage; etc. etc. - I'd imagine they would be derided as part of the far left. Here these things have general support across the political spectrum.

I'm not sure that's true in America. Obama is in favor of all those, and he is not considered far left. Also traditionalism has been dying in America, no slower than in Ireland I'm sure

Also, I see no reason to believe civil partnerships are popular in Ireland just because the government supports them. The people I've met mostly seem very anti-gay.

[Јas]

I think it's fair to say that traditionalism has been dying  in Ireland (with increasing alacrity) for the past 40 years.

Anti-far left depends on what you define as the far left. If an American Presidential candidate came out, for example, for universal health care; free third level education with grant funding; civil partnerships; regular increases to the minimum wage; etc. etc. - I'd imagine they would be derided as part of the far left. Here these things have general support across the political spectrum.

I'm not sure that's true in America. Obama is in favor of all those, and he is not considered far left. Also traditionalism has been dying in America, no slower than in Ireland I'm sure

So, you're saying that because in America, one of the Presidential candidates is in favour of these things - this is the same as in Ireland, where these things are supported by the entire political establishment and are (or are soon to be) political realities?

Also, I see no reason to believe civil partnerships are popular in Ireland just because the government supports them.

Government and officially every political party with representation in this state (being part of all of their manifestos prior to the General Election last summer).

The people I've met mostly seem very anti-gay.

You regularly questioned folk on their opinions of homosexuals, did you?

[Filuwaúrdjan]

A few decades back Ireland was a rather conservative country, in some ways it still is (but how many countries can you not say that of?), but things have changed a lot since then. The majority view of Ireland amongst Americans is over a century old o/c.

[Ban my account ffs!]

A few decades back Ireland was a rather conservative country, in some ways it still is (but how many countries can you not say that of?), but things have changed a lot since then. The majority view of Ireland amongst Americans is over a century old o/c.

You have to realize that the last time we had any major dealings with Ireland was when millions fled the place to our shores due to a single crop disease.  That's the scope of Irish history in American world history classes.  Instead, we spend a unit on before-Greece, one on Greece, one on Rome, then there was a period where nothing happened for several hundred years, then there was a big plague, then America was discovered and before you know it, World War 1!.. oh, and then World War 2, and then there's not much covered after that because World History teachers in the U.S. get very nostalgic about World War 2 and spend the rest of the semester on it and then assign the last 8 chapters of a history book for the last week of classes and then there are 1 or 2 questions on the exam.

I agree with Gully 100% in that our education system is largely flawed and based on a very conservative/authoritarian model and that it needs to be reformed.  My ideas for reform are much different, however.

[Tetro Kornbluth]

A few decades back Ireland was a rather conservative country, in some ways it still is (but how many countries can you not say that of?), but things have changed a lot since then. The majority view of Ireland amongst Americans is over a century old o/c.

You could make a pretty strong case that in the 1940s and 1950s the Catholic Church had at least equal standing in power to the government in Ireland.

Of course nothing is even close to the case now.

As for the American view of Ireland... well... I guess "Quaint" is the least irritating adjective I could use.

@Snowguy: The teaching of history is ridiculously bad here also.... but that is for another thread.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

You forget that Bono is Bono. At a guess he's defining "left" as meaning "more state control" and "right" as meaning "less state control".

So... he's defining "conservative" as "left-wing", or what?

I can't see any metric or definition of "conservative" whatsoever that would make Canada in the contest for the most conservative Western country.

Well, the number of days to starting a business is only 3--compare with 5 on the US. Your overall weighted tariff rate is only 0.9%, compared with 1.7% in the US. Your top income tax rate is less than the US one, AND you have less brackets, meaning the tax is flatter. However, it's true that tax revenue as a share of GDP is higher in Canada (likely due to the national VAT which Steven Harper promised to abolish and then raised *ahem*). Your labor market flexibility, while not beating the US's, is still in the top 20. And your Provinces have much more power than US states (possibly the only federal entities with a comparable level of self-government are Swiss cantons). The only issue where you're actually significantly to the left of the US is health care, and even then you're now moving away from single payer (I'm not aying you're moving away from universal coverage, note).

Yes but what does this have to do with Conservatism. I always believed that conservatism was about preserving "traditional" values and stuff. It's also very funny how being against protectionism is now considered "conservative".

So being economically right wing is not conservative? Of course that's the standard load of sh!t I'd expect from you.

[Tetro Kornbluth]

You forget that Bono is Bono. At a guess he's defining "left" as meaning "more state control" and "right" as meaning "less state control".

So... he's defining "conservative" as "left-wing", or what?

I can't see any metric or definition of "conservative" whatsoever that would make Canada in the contest for the most conservative Western country.

Well, the number of days to starting a business is only 3--compare with 5 on the US. Your overall weighted tariff rate is only 0.9%, compared with 1.7% in the US. Your top income tax rate is less than the US one, AND you have less brackets, meaning the tax is flatter. However, it's true that tax revenue as a share of GDP is higher in Canada (likely due to the national VAT which Steven Harper promised to abolish and then raised *ahem*). Your labor market flexibility, while not beating the US's, is still in the top 20. And your Provinces have much more power than US states (possibly the only federal entities with a comparable level of self-government are Swiss cantons). The only issue where you're actually significantly to the left of the US is health care, and even then you're now moving away from single payer (I'm not aying you're moving away from universal coverage, note).

Yes but what does this have to do with Conservatism. I always believed that conservatism was about preserving "traditional" values and stuff. It's also very funny how being against protectionism is now considered "conservative".

So being economically right wing is not conservative? Of course that's the standard load of sh!t I'd expect from you.

I was going right out a big long post why you are, yet again, wrong but it got lost in the computer wash and so I'll keep this short enough. There are many purposes to protectionism but one of its major goals is to keep Capital within the country where the trade barriers have been implented and to keep competition out of the marketplace within these countries. This is a scientific economic fact.

Ergo protectionism often ends up benefiting redundant industries and the very rich who run them. It also benefits a highly centralized state and thus the elite. It also beligerent towards other states due to obvious trading impediments and is very localist and nationalist in its approach. I thought the left was opposed to these things. *

You can of course be Anti-NAFTA (which isn't really a free trade agreement as such) and Anti-protectionist; but you with your Nolan chart view of politics may not be able to see that.


* - This I know is a slight simplification as the Truth is always more complicated in that magical place we call "real life" but my sublities unfortunetly got lost with my long post.. tariff protection in the United States would very different from the application of tariffs in say, Burkina Faso. But the record of using trade barriers to built up national industry (unless you have a *significant* national resource ie. Oil) is very bad and one can only look at the history of Modern Ireland to show it. But of course the US has gone well past the stage of needing "industrial development".

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Does it matter what your opinion on the things are though? The bottom line is, in the US, supporting free trade is considered right wing. Period, end of story, and there's absolutely nothing you can do to change it. I am left wing on this issue and you are right wing. And you are more conservative than me, even (perhaps especially) in the "moral" sense.

[Tetro Kornbluth]

Does it matter what your opinion on the things are though? The bottom line is, in the US, supporting free trade is considered right wing. Period, end of story, and there's absolutely nothing you can do to change it. I am left wing on this issue and you are right wing. And you are more conservative than me, even (perhaps especially) in the "moral" sense.

What if you support Free trade with International unionization as well?

I admit I am a conservative on plently things (yes I know that contradicts stuff I said earlier but don't take me literally.) the problem is I guess is that I still prefer to use the traditional defintions of the word which are still used here - to an extent.

[Platypus]

This thread is ridiculous.