Four years ago today...

[MODU]

International background?  What would that be?

His father was from Kenya and he still has lots of family there that he visits. He also lived in Indonesia for four years. His mixed race background will also help.

Whatever you want to dispute, foreign leaders view him as worldly (at least compared to the other candidates).

I have a greater international background than Barack, but does that mean I am therefore more qualified for handling foreign relations?  Having relatives outside of the states doesn't really mean too much when it comes to working with foreign leaders.  He might have the natural skill set to do it, but that is different than having biological connections abroad.

[Fmr. Pres. Duke]

I'm sure the extremists are excited that America will soon wish to sit down with them to discuss how we can work out our problems

Yeah.  Damn that Ronald Reagan for sitting down with the extremists who wanted to destroy America in the 80's.

The USSR and the Islamic fundies are totally different. One was a nation that really didn't want war any more than we did, and the other is a group that glorifies death and WANTS to die killing westerns. Children grow up with dreams of 72 virgins in heaven and being a hero for walking into a group of people and setting off a bomb. The soviets weren't nice people either, but relations in the 1980's presented a leader on the soviets side who was ready for change and a more peaceful coexistence.

I have yet to see Osama bin Laden or any other extremist leader come out and want to do the same. Their goal is to establish an Islamic society and rid the world of sinners and anyone who disagrees with their beliefs. 

[Fmr. Pres. Duke]

Reagan also didn't want to sit down with them at first. He built up arms and the military until the soviets finally were ready to talk. he didnt run on the platform of negotiating with them. He called them the evil empire for Christ's sake. Why try to compare what Obama wants to do to Reagan? This is absolutely getting out of control now!

[Fmr. Pres. Duke]

I'm sure the extremists are excited that America will soon wish to sit down with them to discuss how we can work out our problems and look at their plight with a tolerant eye!

Of course, because the Bush doctrine has worked so well. It makes sense to elect another Bush-clone like McCain or Romney.

Give Iraq time. The Taliban has been all but driven from their post, and Afghanistan has a functioning Democracy. North Korea has dismantled their nuclear facilities thanks to multinational talks. Iraq will turn around. Those who said it would be quick and easy were wrong. No wars are. The Bush doctrine has not been a total failure. But I know I can't convince you of that no matter what I say.

[Bacon King]

Afghanistan has a functioning Democracy.

If by functioning democracy you mean nearly complete anarchy outside of Kabul, you would be correct.

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See? Talking works. Not hardheaded, ignorant invasions.

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Except that the Bush doctrine, in regards to Iraq, was basically, "Go in, kick their asses and be done with it."

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Well, true, but the same applies to me, you and pretty much everyone.

[JSojourner]

I'm sure the extremists are excited that America will soon wish to sit down with them to discuss how we can work out our problems

Yeah.  Damn that Ronald Reagan for sitting down with the extremists who wanted to destroy America in the 80's.

The USSR and the Islamic fundies are totally different.

Somewhat.  The USSR was controlled by insane, America-hating maniacs who were Atheists.

 One was a nation that really didn't want war any more than we did, and the other is a group that glorifies death and WANTS to die killing westerns.

Oh, the Soviets wanted war.  And they would have cheerfully brought it, too.  Had it not been for a succession of Presidents and Congresses that kept America strong.  Now, in Mikhail Gorbachev, we did see a Communist with a gentler side.  He was someone both Ronald Reagan and George Schultz knew we could reason with.

Children grow up with dreams of 72 virgins in heaven

Just an aside.  But that has always baffled me.  I mean, I might be tempted to dream of 72 sluts.  But virgins?  What? You mean I'm not gonna get any up there, either?  Okay -- sorry -- serious discussion.  Hope I didn't offend anyone!

and being a hero for walking into a group of people and setting off a bomb.

But that's just it.  These folks are not in control of any one country.  Iran?  Possibly.  Saudi Arabia, more likely.  But what's keeping them from following through?  Strength.  What might potentially end the impasse?  Well, I agree -- a massive nuclear strike on Tehran and/or Mecca might.  And I am sure the neocons would cheer it.  But I think Ronald Reagan would suggest that we maintain our strength in the region, (D's might argue with R's over what that would look like) and find sane, reasonable people to negotiate with.  Are there no Arab or Muslim Gorbachevs?

I have yet to see Osama bin Laden or any other extremist leader come out and want to do the same.

I never said we should negotiate with that vile bag of pus.  Kill him.  I'm still waiting for a President with the stones to do that.  Not saying Edwards or Obama is that guy -- but The Decider clearly isn't. But even the loony Iranian President has reached out.  Even the Syrian dictator has made overtures.  We have got to get serious about meeting these people halfway.  At the same time, we need to be ready to punish them if they attack us or if they sponsor those who do so. But our current "whatever Israel says and does is always right" policy is foolish, stupid and unjust.  And that's the root of this whole thing.  The double standard we currently enable tastes like a camel turd to them and frankly, I don't blame them.  Iran can't have nukes because -- well -- because they're Muslim extremists.  Israel CAN have nukes. Because -- well -- because they're what?  Oh, I know.  A Democracy just trying to live in peace. Bullsh**t.  There are butchering Arab thugs and butchering Israel thugs.  And I'm not sure there's any way to sort them out except to sit down and talk.  Or let them slaughter each other and completely remove ourselves.

Their goal is to establish an Islamic society and rid the world of sinners and anyone who disagrees with their beliefs. 

True, my friend.  This is why the Muslim extremists do scare me.  Look what they did to Buddhists and Christians in Afghanistan.  Look what they continue to do to Bahaists in Iran (taking away their land, fencing them off, jailing them.)  Radical Islam is every bit the threat Communism (at least in the Soviet or Maoist form) was. And while the exact details of how we will deal with it may differ, the overarching approach almost perfected by Ronald Reagan should never be abandoned.  Search for someone you CAN dialogue with.  And dialogue from a position of strength.

[minionofmidas]

Foreign leaders are looking forward to working with Obama because he has an international background and because he's so well-respected around the world. I have seen various reports where leaders and voters around the world are pulling for Obama.

McCain is too closely aligned with Bush to be effective on a world stage.

International background?  What would that be?  His mother raised him here in the US and he barely knew his father. 

Uh, he was raised in Hawai'i and Indonesia.

[JSojourner]

I'm sure the extremists are excited that America will soon wish to sit down with them to discuss how we can work out our problems and look at their plight with a tolerant eye!

Of course, because the Bush doctrine has worked so well. It makes sense to elect another Bush-clone like McCain or Romney.

Give Iraq time.

We're turning the corner.

[Wakie]

Foreign leaders are looking forward to working with Obama because he has an international background and because he's so well-respected around the world. I have seen various reports where leaders and voters around the world are pulling for Obama.

McCain is too closely aligned with Bush to be effective on a world stage.

International background?  What would that be?  His mother raised him here in the US and he barely knew his father. 

Uh, he was raised in Hawai'i and Indonesia.

Last time I checked Hawaii is part of the US.  And spending between the ages of 6-10 in Indonesia hardly qualifies as serious international experience.

[Ebowed]

And spending between the ages of 6-10 in Indonesia hardly qualifies as serious international experience.

Wow, dead wrong.  Have you ever lived outside of the US?

[MODU]

And spending between the ages of 6-10 in Indonesia hardly qualifies as serious international experience.

Wow, dead wrong.  Have you ever lived outside of the US?

In regards to practical application, his few years as a youth aren't worth much when it comes for dealing with foreign governments.

[Flying Dog]

And spending between the ages of 6-10 in Indonesia hardly qualifies as serious international experience.

Wow, dead wrong.  Have you ever lived outside of the US?

In regards to practical application, his few years as a youth aren't worth much when it comes for dealing with foreign governments.

He often travels to Africa now.

[Ebowed]

And spending between the ages of 6-10 in Indonesia hardly qualifies as serious international experience.

Wow, dead wrong.  Have you ever lived outside of the US?

In regards to practical application, his few years as a youth aren't worth much when it comes for dealing with foreign governments.

I don't think anyone was saying that exactly, although it can't hurt.

What I can't get my head around is this Wakie character actually saying that spending a significant portion of your youth in a foreign country doesn't give you international experience.

[Wakie]

And spending between the ages of 6-10 in Indonesia hardly qualifies as serious international experience.

Wow, dead wrong.  Have you ever lived outside of the US?

LOL.  Yes.  In fact I have spent quite a bit of time out of the US in Japan, Eastern Europe, and the Carribbean.  But I hardly consider 4 years of life when you are playing with your GI Joe's and learning basic math as gaining serious international experience.

"Yes sir, in the 3rd grade I negotiated a treaty between the forces of GI Joe and Cobra."

[Wakie]

And spending between the ages of 6-10 in Indonesia hardly qualifies as serious international experience.

Wow, dead wrong.  Have you ever lived outside of the US?

In regards to practical application, his few years as a youth aren't worth much when it comes for dealing with foreign governments.

He often travels to Africa now.

I travel frequently to Japan for work.  Can I be Secretary of State?

[Ebowed]

LOL.  Yes.  In fact I have spent quite a bit of time out of the US in Japan, Eastern Europe, and the Carribbean.  But I hardly consider 4 years of life when you are playing with your GI Joe's and learning basic math as gaining serious international experience.

"Yes sir, in the 3rd grade I negotiated a treaty between the forces of GI Joe and Cobra."

What I asked you is whether you've lived outside of the US, preferably for a year or longer.

Anyway, it's no more significant than going to college in the UK, or spending a summer in Germany in your 20s, or whatever else you presumably consider more important than spending several years of your childhood living in another country.

Living in another country gives you better perspective, is all.  Something that you won't get by visiting a foreign country for work reasons a few times a year.

[Flying Dog]

And spending between the ages of 6-10 in Indonesia hardly qualifies as serious international experience.

Wow, dead wrong.  Have you ever lived outside of the US?

In regards to practical application, his few years as a youth aren't worth much when it comes for dealing with foreign governments.

He often travels to Africa now.

I travel frequently to Japan for work.  Can I be Secretary of State?

No, because your not in a U.S. Congressional Delegation like he is when he's there.

[Reluctant Republican]

Obama reminds me of Fred Thompson in a way. I don't deny he'd probably be a good president and an effective spokesmen for more progressive beliefs, but the way everyone’s building him up I can’t help but think he’s virtually guaranteed to be a disappointment to many people once he gets in there.

[Ebowed]

Obama reminds me of Fred Thompson in a way. I don't deny he'd probably be a good president and an effective spokesmen for more progressive beliefs, but the way everyone’s building him up I can’t help but think he’s virtually guaranteed to be a disappointment to many people once he gets in there.

Yeah, I don't expect a perfect presidency if he wins.  It is easy to forget in the midst of all this hype that he is influenced by corporatist money and many of his proposals reflect that.  But in many other areas he has demonstrated that he is willing to cause serious change.  I hope he's sincere about it.

[Wakie]

Ebowed, look no one is calling it a negative that he lived there.  But I find it hilarious that some people think that it constitutes significant experience.  When you were 10 years old how much were thinking about geo-politics?  Probably not that much.  This is the part where you tell me about him writing an essay while in kindergarten.  That's great, I know a kid who wanted to be an astronaut at the time.  Does that mean we should put him in the space shuttle?

I have lived abroad.  Granted, it was Germany and Europe, by comparison, is not that unlike the US.  And living abroad does give one a nice rounded perspective.  But world leaders aren't jumping up and down excited because the guy learned his ABC's in Jakarta.



Pope Leo, he's been in the Senate for 2 years.  The last year of which he's been campaigning for President and the first year he was learning the ropes.  How many foreign trips do you really think he's taken?

[Ebowed]

This is the part where you tell me about him writing an essay while in kindergarten.  That's great, I know a kid who wanted to be an astronaut at the time.  Does that mean we should put him in the space shuttle?

Actualy that was a reference to the fact that the Clinton camp ever brought that up in the first place.

I would agree that whatever he wrote in kindergarden is completely irrelevant.

[Keystone Phil]

Funny that an Illinois billionaire beating his wife may be what denied Hillary Clinton the Presidency.

Yeah, I've always said that.

[Keystone Phil]

Exactly.  That's what's scary: someone with absolutely no experience, with no knowledge of how foreign policy works, with no background whatsoever in leadership, who claims to be an "agent of change" but is unable to provide any proof that he has ever been such now actually stands a chance at becoming the leader of our nation during its most unstable and uncertain time in decades.  With an ongoing war, terrorism, facing enemies unlike any we've ever faced--people who want to kill us just because we're Americans--a crisis in health care, uncertainty about the economy, global warming....this guy with no prior history dealing in any of these matters might now suddenly be leading us through it all.

I know everyone else here (not to mention every single news outlet in the country) is blindly and for no reason obsessed with him, but I, for one, am pretty scared.

I was trying to get at that, too, but it is amazing that he was able to pull it off.

[minionofmidas]

Foreign leaders are looking forward to working with Obama because he has an international background and because he's so well-respected around the world. I have seen various reports where leaders and voters around the world are pulling for Obama.

McCain is too closely aligned with Bush to be effective on a world stage.

International background?  What would that be?  His mother raised him here in the US and he barely knew his father. 

Uh, he was raised in Hawai'i and Indonesia.

Last time I checked Hawaii is part of the US.  And spending between the ages of 6-10 in Indonesia hardly qualifies as serious international experience.

We#re talking "international background", not "serious international experience". Given the last presidency, I'd basically be disinclined to vote for anyone who grew up eclusively in the US. Way too insular a place to pick world leaders from, basically.

[Bacon King]

Pope Leo, he's been in the Senate for 2 years.  The last year of which he's been campaigning for President and the first year he was learning the ropes.  How many foreign trips do you really think he's taken?

Two? What? He's been in there for going on four years, in which time he's sponsored a significant amount of succesful legislation. And before that, he was in the IL Senate for eight, in which time he successfully passed several hundred bills. Sounds like experience, no? More elected experience than Hillary, at any rate.

But onto the topic of foreign policy experience, he's gone on three official foreign trips abroad in his status as a United States senator, visiting fourteen countries; in addition, he's also visited his family in Kenya as a personal trip. And he's the chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations subcommittee on Europe, you know. That's significantly more foreign policy experience than either Reagan or Clinton upon their election to the presidency. What foriegn experience did they have?