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Author Topic: Israel  (Read 53685 times)
Gustaf
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« Reply #450 on: August 13, 2009, 09:44:08 am »
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Yeah, Israel made the first official move.

Here is a quote from the Syrian Minister of Defence from May 1967:

"Our forces are now entirely ready not only to repulse the aggression, but to initiate the act of liberation itself, and to explode the Zionist presence in the Arab homeland. The Syrian Army, with its finger on the trigger, is united... I, as a military man, believe that the time has come to enter into a battle of annihilation."

President Nasser of Egypt said: "Our basic objective will be the destruction of Israel. The Arab people want to fight."

So it isn't as if it was a random act of aggression. The Arab countries said they were going to destroy Israel, expelled UN peacekeepers from Sinai, mobilized their armies and positioned them at the border. Then Israel decided to strike first. I really don't think that makes them the agressor of the war. 
That is true to an extent. Then again, Israel wasn't exactly peaceful before the war:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six_day_war#Background


But since the Palestinians started out with a lot more land they have had the opportunity to cede it.
Why should they cede land?



Besides, there were a lot of immigration expected to come to Israel from Jews, meaning that they would need more land than their part of the population indicated at the time. In addition, a large part of the Jewish land was desert land that wasn't of much use to anyone and was sparsely populated.

Anyway, it is amusing how the left, normally so pro-immigration, thinks that it was ok for Palestinians to demand an end to immigration and expulsion of all Jews from their territory. Or that the harassed immigrants should not have had any right to land outside of the ghettos where they had been forced to concentrate by a hostile indegenous population.
Nice for admitting that the Partition plan was unfair to the Arabs. It was supposed to be a division to accommodate the current population division, not what population there might be in the future. Using the same argument, it could be argued that Israel should cede to the Palestinians not only the whole West Bank, but also parts of Israel to accommodate their much higher birth rates.
As for immigration, you shouldn't generalize. I might have left wing views, but I believe that a country should have the right to determine who has the right to immigrate. Especially if the immigrants plan on taking over the country. Palestine, not being a sovereign country, was not given the opportunity to do this, which is why the Jewish settlement was such a great injustice.
Of course, I'm certain that you have nothing against a Muslim takeover of Sweden by the same method.
Finally, considering that Israel occupies (according to all international organisations) Palestinian territories, I don't think there could be any doubt in the rightfulness of the Palestinian demand for independence.




From what I've read the proposal for division was explicitly designed to accomodate the immigration which was not a question of future years to come but an immediate pressing issue with hundreds of thousands of Jews trying to enter the land. The Jewish population in Palestine was exploding at the time.

Birth rates is a rather different issue...but, basically, having the original 1948 division today would be basically fair, I believe, since the Jewish and Arab population of the area is today roughly equal.

I wasn't talking spefically about you, but rather I was generalizing, wrong as you may think that to be.

You seem to confuse some different aspects here. I agree that a country has the right to determine who gets to migrate to it. England, the legal ruler of Palestine, decided to let the Jews come there. If you argue that England did not have the right to make that decision I'm not sure who did. The local neighbours?

And you are correct that I do not have a problem with Muslim migration to Sweden (something that is not commonly referred to as a "takeover" here, other than by xenophobes and racists. But I realize the political culture and attitude to Muslims is different in Eastern Europe). Ideally, I believe a country should have open borders.

I don't seem how you can argue simultaneously that it was unjust by Israel to get the land alloted to them by the international community and also for it to be by definition just for the Palestinians to get the same. Either the division is justice incarnate or it is not.
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« Reply #451 on: August 17, 2009, 04:21:12 pm »
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If (when) a Palestinian State is established, I think it needs to be one continuous state, rather than little pockets throughout current Israel.
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« Reply #452 on: August 17, 2009, 05:25:07 pm »
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If (when) a Palestinian State is established, I think it needs to be one continuous state, rather than little pockets throughout current Israel.

One of the states will be noncontiguous, and I don't think it'll be Israel.
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« Reply #453 on: August 17, 2009, 10:21:33 pm »
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If (when) a Palestinian State is established, I think it needs to be one continuous state, rather than little pockets throughout current Israel.

One of the states will be noncontiguous, and I don't think it'll be Israel.

And that worries me.
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« Reply #454 on: August 17, 2009, 11:20:18 pm »
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3 states?
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« Reply #455 on: August 18, 2009, 12:04:17 am »
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3 states?

Perhaps.
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« Reply #456 on: August 18, 2009, 03:56:18 pm »
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If Gaza were to become independent, perhaps it could use Singapore as a model.*



*yes I realize this is hopeless dreaming, just sayin'
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« Reply #457 on: August 19, 2009, 04:51:10 am »
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If Gaza were to become independent, perhaps it could use Singapore as a model.*

Some already seriously envisaged it for a while as far as I can remember, though, I don't remember more about that.

*yes I realize this is hopeless dreaming, just sayin'

That would surely be the only chance of Gaza to be a viable state, but...yes.
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« Reply #458 on: August 19, 2009, 11:18:34 am »
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And what would Gaza have as an export? Could they have a viable economy? Or would they end up being some third world welfare state?
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« Reply #459 on: August 19, 2009, 12:11:05 pm »
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And what would Gaza have as an export? Could they have a viable economy? Or would they end up being some third world welfare state?

For that matter, could any sort of Palestinian State avoid this?
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« Reply #460 on: August 19, 2009, 02:25:15 pm »
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And what would Gaza have as an export? Could they have a viable economy? Or would they end up being some third world welfare state?

For that matter, could any sort of Palestinian State avoid this?

The West Bank would have plenty of tourism, but I can't imagine anyone wanting to visit Gaza.
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« Reply #461 on: August 19, 2009, 03:06:17 pm »
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Hence the "use Singapore as a model" comment. Gaza is actually a lot less densely populated than Singapore. Import raw goods and export finished goods.

Also, tiny countries are awesome.
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« Reply #462 on: August 19, 2009, 04:28:36 pm »
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And what would Gaza have as an export? Could they have a viable economy? Or would they end up being some third world welfare state?

What do Dubaï and Singapore have?
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« Reply #463 on: August 19, 2009, 04:55:43 pm »
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And what would Gaza have as an export? Could they have a viable economy? Or would they end up being some third world welfare state?

What do Dubaï and Singapore have?

Dubai had enough oil to give it a jumpstart.  Singapore had a decent anchorage on a major shipping lane.  Gaza doesn't have either of those advantages.  It might have a chance if it didn't have to deal with those who moved there during the ethnic cleansing of 1948-9 and their descendants.
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« Reply #464 on: August 19, 2009, 06:51:48 pm »
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Gaza, the next tax haven! Tongue
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« Reply #465 on: August 20, 2009, 02:35:09 am »
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They're pretty good at exporting sympathy despite constantly blowing sh**t up, is there any value in that?
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« Reply #466 on: August 20, 2009, 08:11:12 am »
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They're pretty good at exporting sympathy despite constantly blowing sh**t up, is there any value in that?

Exporting or importing?
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Money became totally unfair.
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Maybe a little update:

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« Reply #467 on: August 20, 2009, 10:19:45 pm »
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They're pretty good at exporting sympathy despite constantly blowing sh**t up, is there any value in that?

They export terror in general.
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« Reply #468 on: August 21, 2009, 02:43:09 pm »
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They're pretty good at exporting sympathy despite constantly blowing sh**t up, is there any value in that?

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Graph_for_dead_and_wounded_Gaza_conflict.png

I wonder why...
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« Reply #469 on: August 22, 2009, 12:20:36 am »
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I know why...and I bet we disagree.  It's funny though.  Clearly blowing sh**t up isn't working..in fact, it's constantly made things much worse for them.  Yet they keep blowing sh**t up.  The West Bank has gotten the message (for the most part), but not the dumbasses on the strip.  Everybody's friend Iran is still trying to send them more sh**t to blow up, thankfully they have been blowing up in route lately.

Clearly more violence will solve all their problems.
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« Reply #470 on: August 22, 2009, 01:45:55 pm »
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They're pretty good at exporting sympathy despite constantly blowing sh**t up, is there any value in that?

I'd take a look at who sympathy is generally connected with. It's like you can barely hide your contempt for Palestinians.
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« Reply #471 on: August 22, 2009, 03:00:41 pm »
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I know why...and I bet we disagree.  It's funny though.  Clearly blowing sh**t up isn't working..in fact, it's constantly made things much worse for them.  Yet they keep blowing sh**t up.  The West Bank has gotten the message (for the most part), but not the dumbasses on the strip.  Everybody's friend Iran is still trying to send them more sh**t to blow up, thankfully they have been blowing up in route lately.

Clearly more violence will solve all their problems.
You know of another reason for the sympathy of the Palestinians, other than the massive civilian casualties, especially in comparison with Israel, they have suffered in this and other wars? Why don't you state it then?
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« Reply #472 on: August 22, 2009, 03:14:11 pm »
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You know of another reason for the sympathy of the Palestinians, other than the massive civilian casualties, especially in comparison with Israel, they have suffered in this and other wars?

They've suffered more civilian casualties because the terrorists deliberately insert themselves in densely populated areas.  Israel has done so much to minimize civilian casualties among the Palestinians; but you don't care, you'll just continue blaming Israel no matter what they do.
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« Reply #473 on: August 23, 2009, 09:24:38 am »
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You know of another reason for the sympathy of the Palestinians, other than the massive civilian casualties, especially in comparison with Israel, they have suffered in this and other wars?

They've suffered more civilian casualties because the terrorists deliberately insert themselves in densely populated areas.  Israel has done so much to minimize civilian casualties among the Palestinians; but you don't care, you'll just continue blaming Israel no matter what they do.

Wow. There are still people to defend what happened in January??

And, no, the terrorist are here because Hamas took the control of there. And as a random they took the control of most screwed part of Palestine, Gaza. An overcrowded place under an embargo... Yeah, good strategy Israel, yeah, you're building your peace like that...

And defending what happened in January seems to me to be, no offense, it's purposed to be for the sake of those who old this position, nothing but a fully knee jerking stupidity. Ok, it's not bearable to receive rockets for a civilian population, like what was happening in the south of Israel, but the response of Israel was nothing but stupid, outside of the fact that this response was for sure going to include big war crimes (and not to speak of the orders given to infantry when they were in Gaza, sounds there are some debates about this there, right?), Israeli leaders should consult psychologists or sociologists or something, when you punch and kick and slap someone, it's very rare that this one suddenly becomes your friend.

I don't come to defend Hamas, actually, at that time i was speaking with an Arab girl from Tunisia, not a bad girl, not stupid, but she was here full of anger "with criminal Zionnists!!" and so on... And with her, I was saying the same kind of things towards the leaders of Hamas and toward Gaza's population who has let Hamas taken the control there.

We're here with both stupid sides, one "blows the s**t up" as been said here on an other one knowing that this other one is able to "blow tons and tons and tons of s**t up on them" and this other one does it!! His imagination concerning the possible consequences of his acts is just put on "off", on the short term (war crimes) and on the long term, so he throws his tons, and the other one is still more desperate and angry under these tons, so he continues to throw the bit of s**t he has, etc...

I can't think of someone I would congratulate there...
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14/01/2011: Tunisia!!
11/02/2011: Egypt!
20/10/2011: Libya
02/09/2013: Abandon of Syria...
...and of, well, 'all of that'...

Money became totally unfair.
Money became totally senseless.
Let's make Money totally useless...

??/??/20??: EU UU!!

Maybe a little update:

Religion Tradition is people's opium...
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« Reply #474 on: August 23, 2009, 09:26:21 am »
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To Hell with Israel. The only people in America that supports them are the weakling Christians that want to be preyed upon, because it makes them feel important.
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