Israel

[Хahar 🤔]

This is a place for me and Supersoulty (and anyone else) to talk about Israel.

[12th Doctor]

I liked our previous environs just fine.

This reminds me of a government class I had back in high school.  The teacher insisted that it was a class about "goverment" not "politics"... so I raised my hand and said, "So this is a course abotu government in theory, then?"

Any discussion of the Middle East without Israel is just a discussion in theory.

[Хahar 🤔]

Well, this place is especially for Israel, since Hashemite has complained. Other countries have their own threads.

[12th Doctor]

Well, this place is especially for Israel, since Hashemite has complained. Other countries have their own threads.

Well... most of those countries are recongnized by 90% of the worlds population which makes Israel rather unique, wouldn't you say... it only being recongnized by about 5/6 of the world.

[Хahar 🤔]

Well, this place is especially for Israel, since Hashemite has complained. Other countries have their own threads.

Well... most of those countries are recongnized by 90% of the worlds population which makes Israel rather unique, wouldn't you say... it only being recongnized by about 5/6 of the world.

[12th Doctor]

Well, this place is especially for Israel, since Hashemite has complained. Other countries have their own threads.

Well... most of those countries are recongnized by 90% of the worlds population which makes Israel rather unique, wouldn't you say... it only being recongnized by about 5/6 of the world.

Wow... and here I thought that would make the debate devolve into some kinda Buckley/Vidal shouting match that ended in you calling my a crypto fascists and me calling you a queer.

[Tetro Kornbluth]

I liked our previous environs just fine.

This reminds me of a government class I had back in high school.  The teacher insisted that it was a class about "goverment" not "politics"... so I raised my hand and said, "So this is a course abotu government in theory, then?"

Any discussion of the Middle East without Israel is just a discussion in theory.

.... which is one of the big problems of the Middle East.

[Хahar 🤔]

Well, this place is especially for Israel, since Hashemite has complained. Other countries have their own threads.

Well... most of those countries are recongnized by 90% of the worlds population which makes Israel rather unique, wouldn't you say... it only being recongnized by about 5/6 of the world.

Wow... and here I thought that would make the debate devolve into some kinda Buckley/Vidal shouting match that ended in you calling my a crypto fascists and me calling you a queer.

Hey, it's the truth. I've got no problem with Israel per se.

[12th Doctor]

Alright... well here:

The t********s (no, I don't even use the word) are not monolithic, and saying you should build a big wall and deprive them of their livelihood to keep a few "t********s" out is akin to the Japanese internment.

The fact that you won't even call these people "terrorists" just goes to show how intellectually dishonest you are being.  First, you are trying to disavow the actions of these "few", but then you turn around and act as though what they are doing isn't that bad anyway.  You want to call them freedom fights.  Just admit it.

I'm Irish... there are Irish terrorist too, pal.  And I think my people were done a huge disservice by the English.  A terrorist is a terrorist, whether they praise Allah, or wear a green necktie and sing "Danny Boy".

I can hardly think any cause is worth strapping a bomb to yourself and blowing up a bus.  Or hiding a car bomb in a market place.  The people who are so pissed off about the Jews taking their land today were never alive during a time when things were any different.  Get over it!  Maybe if you did, then the Jews would feel the compulsion to keep the Palestinians where they can be watched.  If I went back and demanded some kinda compensation from Queen Elizabeth II would be laughed out of the room.  What makes you think the Arabs are worthy of any other reaction?

And last a checked, a very large number of Palestinians at least tacitly support the actions of the PLO And others, so don't even try to feed me that line.

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The Jews were perfectly willing to live side by side with Palestinians, in 1947.  It was the Palestinians who were totally unwilling to negotiate.  Just as it has been the Palestinians who have backed away from the table every single time since.

As for the line, didn't the Arab attacks on Israel during the Six Day War kinda negate the line anyway?  Honestly, I couldn't care less, regardless.

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For strategic purposes, they took territory, yes.  Let me assure you, if Kuwait had kicked Iraq's ass all by itself back in 1991, then they would have taken territory, too.  The fact that we did it for them is the reason they didn't.  Israel took territory because no one else is really willing to help defend them.  Kuwait doesn't have to worry about that, ergo your analogy sucks.

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Monetary compensation wasn't coming.  The reason for taking much of the territory, as I expressed before, was strategic.  As for the nation-state... Israel wanted to negotiate a Palestinian state from day one, but the Palestinians turned both Israel, and the ever precious U.N. down.

[Хahar 🤔]

Alright... well here:

The t********s (no, I don't even use the word) are not monolithic, and saying you should build a big wall and deprive them of their livelihood to keep a few "t********s" out is akin to the Japanese internment.

The fact that you won't even call these people "terrorists" just goes to show how intellectually dishonest you are being.  First, you are trying to disavow the actions of these "few", but then you turn around and act as though what they are doing isn't that bad anyway.  You want to call them freedom fights.  Just admit it.

I'm Irish... there are Irish terrorist too, pal.  And I think my people were done a huge disservice by the English.  A terrorist is a terrorist, whether they praise Allah, or wear a green necktie and sing "Danny Boy".

I can hardly think any cause is worth strapping a bomb to yourself and blowing up a bus.  Or hiding a car bomb in a market place.  The people who are so pissed off about the Jews taking their land today were never alive during a time when things were any different.  Get over it!  Maybe if you did, then the Jews would feel the compulsion to keep the Palestinians where they can be watched.  If I went back and demanded some kinda compensation from Queen Elizabeth II would be laughed out of the room.  What makes you think the Arabs are worthy of any other reaction?

And last a checked, a very large number of Palestinians at least tacitly support the actions of the PLO And others, so don't even try to feed me that line.

Hey, I don't condone their actions. I don't call them terrorists because of the way the fearmongers in Washington portray "them" as a single entity, which "they" are not.

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The Jews were perfectly willing to live side by side with Palestinians, in 1947.  It was the Palestinians who were totally unwilling to negotiate.  Just as it has been the Palestinians who have backed away from the table every single time since.

As for the line, didn't the Arab attacks on Israel during the Six Day War kinda negate the line anyway?  Honestly, I couldn't care less, regardless.[/quote]

Well, you may not care, but if you had a giant fence in your backyard, you would.

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For strategic purposes, they took territory, yes.  Let me assure you, if Kuwait had kicked Iraq's ass all by itself back in 1991, then they would have taken territory, too.  The fact that we did it for them is the reason they didn't.  Israel took territory because no one else is really willing to help defend them.  Kuwait doesn't have to worry about that, ergo your analogy sucks.[/quote]

Okay, but still, why?

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Monetary compensation wasn't coming.  The reason for taking much of the territory, as I expressed before, was strategic.  As for the nation-state... Israel wanted to negotiate a Palestinian state from day one, but the Palestinians turned both Israel, and the ever precious U.N. down.
[/quote]

Strategic? Wouldn't holding territories like the Golan Heights just create trouble for them?

[dead0man]

Not as bad as the troubles they had when they didn't control the Golan.

[Хahar 🤔]

Not as bad as the troubles they had when they didn't control the Golan.

Okay, but what about the Gaza Strip?

[dead0man]

What about it?

[Хahar 🤔]

What about it?

Posession of the Gaza Strip. What's in it for Israel?

[dead0man]

What about it?

Posession of the Gaza Strip. What's in it for Israel?

They don't have posession of the Gaza Strip

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[Хahar 🤔]

What about it?

Posession of the Gaza Strip. What's in it for Israel?

They don't have posession of the Gaza Strip

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What was in it?

[dead0man]

They were probably hoping for a little less terrorism in their own lands.  The whole "if we fight them 'over there' we won't have to fight them here" meme you hear from the Right in this country.  Except the "over there" in Israel is in their backyard.  Whether it worked or not is debatable I guess.  Since Israel has left Gaza, has attacks increased or decreased coming out of the Strip?

Why do you think Israel was there and in the Golan to this day?

[Хahar 🤔]

They were probably hoping for a little less terrorism in their own lands.  The whole "if we fight them 'over there' we won't have to fight them here" meme you hear from the Right in this country.  Except the "over there" in Israel is in their backyard.  Whether it worked or not is debatable I guess.  Since Israel has left Gaza, has attacks increased or decreased coming out of the Strip?

Why do you think Israel was there and in the Golan to this day?

To be honest, I can't think of a good reason, it's just the far-right pushing their imperialist goals.

[Tory]

Israel held Gaza for the same reason why they should re-take it: because large swathes of Israel within pre-67 borders is unlivable due to the constant rocket fire coming out of Gaza and raining down on Israeli cities. The fence around the West Bank exists well beyond the green line because there were thoughts at one time of unilaterally withdrawing from the WB and handing the land to the PA. If Israel were to withdraw to pre-67 borders then terrorists could launch rockets to basically any part of Israel, putting millions of Israeli citizens in immediate danger. We're not talking about the rockets going into the sparsely populated north from Lebanon; we're talking about Tel Aviv and western Jerusalem becoming easy targets ready to be picked off. Israel is only 16 miles across at its thinnest point(!), and it's the thin parts that are most densely populated.

This isn't a discussion about settlements, its about the security of Israeli citizens residing in Israel-proper.

[dead0man]

To be honest, I can't think of a good reason, it's just the far-right pushing their imperialist goals.

And what has made you come to that conclusion?

[Хahar 🤔]

To be honest, I can't think of a good reason, it's just the far-right pushing their imperialist goals.

And what has made you come to that conclusion?

The boundaries of Isreal are nowhere near where they were originally supposed to be.

[Tory]

To be honest, I can't think of a good reason, it's just the far-right pushing their imperialist goals.

And what has made you come to that conclusion?

The boundaries of Isreal are nowhere near where they were originally supposed to be.

What is "supposed to be"? The original state in 1948 or the pre-67 state? Their official boundaries are those of the pre-67 state. The rest of the land is occupied due to the fact that to withdraw from it would mean the destruction of Israel

[Хahar 🤔]

To be honest, I can't think of a good reason, it's just the far-right pushing their imperialist goals.

And what has made you come to that conclusion?

The boundaries of Isreal are nowhere near where they were originally supposed to be.

What is "supposed to be"? The original state in 1948 or the pre-67 state? Their official boundaries are those of the pre-67 state. The rest of the land is occupied due to the fact that to withdraw from it would mean the destruction of Israel

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/97/UN_Partition_Plan_For_Palestine_1947.png

[Tetro Kornbluth]

To be honest, I can't think of a good reason, it's just the far-right pushing their imperialist goals.

And what has made you come to that conclusion?

The boundaries of Isreal are nowhere near where they were originally supposed to be.

As Tory said that could mean anything. The original Zionists actually wanted a state which would iirc stretch as far as the Euphrates - In modern day Iraq.

[Хahar 🤔]

To be honest, I can't think of a good reason, it's just the far-right pushing their imperialist goals.

And what has made you come to that conclusion?

The boundaries of Isreal are nowhere near where they were originally supposed to be.

As Tory said that could mean anything. The original Zionists actually wanted a state which would iirc stretch as far as the Euphrates - In modern day Iraq.

Why? Jews are no longer persecuted anywhere in the West.

In fact, that brings up an interesting question: why would anyone want to move to Israel?