Israel

[Kaine for Senate '18]

Israel is an overrated country and its government is super sh**tty. We should not fund their military or be a major ally as they can take care of themselves and obiously do not care about our funding to please us.

Wow.  I hold the complete opposite position.

[JohnFKennedy]

I think Al deleted a thread about Zimbabwe because it ended up being another discussion about Israel.  We should try to keep everything about Israel here.

I wondered why that had gone.

Anyway, I have to say I am concerned that anti-semitism and anti-Zionism seem to frequently been conflated in the modern world. The two are very very different.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

This board isn't part of my little empire, so I can't have deleted it.

[Hash]

An Israeli soldier committed suicide at Sarkozy's departure at the airport.

And you should have heard how the Palestinian band played La Marseillaise lol.

[Kaine for Senate '18]

Anyway, I have to say I am concerned that anti-semitism and anti-Zionism seem to frequently been conflated in the modern world. The two are very very different.

I agree; people do seem to get them confused too easily, and there is a big difference.

[Bunwahaha [still dunno why, but well, so be it]]

Anyway, I have to say I am concerned that anti-semitism and anti-Zionism seem to frequently been conflated in the modern world. The two are very very different.

I agree; people do seem to get them confused too easily, and there is a big difference.

Hmm, if you allow me, it seems that the current epoch just...hmm...don't care about (to speak politely) the nuances...

[Tory]

I think Al deleted a thread about Zimbabwe because it ended up being another discussion about Israel.  We should try to keep everything about Israel here.

I wondered why that had gone.

Anyway, I have to say I am concerned that anti-semitism and anti-Zionism seem to frequently been conflated in the modern world. The two are very very different.

Many Muslims and the tradional far right use anti-zionism as a way to express their anti-semitism. The extreme anti-war left uses anti-semitism as a way to express their opposition to zionism. That's why the two become conflated.

[Albus Dumbledore]

Someday, God willing Palestine will be free.

[Kaine for Senate '18]

Someday, God willing Palestine will be free.

I'm all for a free Palestine, but not if it means eliminating Israel.  If Palestine had just taken what the UN gave them, they wouldn't be in this stateless situation.

[Хahar 🤔]

Someday, God willing Palestine will be free.

I'm all for a free Palestine, but not if it means eliminating Israel.  If Palestine had just taken what the UN gave them, they wouldn't be in this stateless situation.

They did. And Israel didn't like it. So Israel changed it.

[Kaine for Senate '18]

Someday, God willing Palestine will be free.

I'm all for a free Palestine, but not if it means eliminating Israel.  If Palestine had just taken what the UN gave them, they wouldn't be in this stateless situation.

They did. And Israel didn't like it. So Israel changed it.

How so?

[Albus Dumbledore]

Demographics are going to crush Israel under the wheels of history. The only question will be how bloody will the transition from zionist settler herrenvolk democracy to secular democracy(best cast scenario) or islamist state(worse case scenario) be.

[Kaine for Senate '18]

Demographics are going to crush Israel under the wheels of history. The only question will be how bloody will the transition from zionist settler herrenvolk democracy to secular democracy(best cast scenario) or islamist state(worse case scenario) be.

I've seen you mention how demographics will crush Israel, but I've never actually seen those stats.  Would you mind showing them to me?

[Хahar 🤔]

Demographics are going to crush Israel under the wheels of history. The only question will be how bloody will the transition from zionist settler herrenvolk democracy to secular democracy(best cast scenario) or islamist state(worse case scenario) be.

I've seen you mention how demographics will crush Israel, but I've never actually seen those stats.  Would you mind showing them to me?

The Palestinians will outnumber the Israelis in 20 years. I'll find a link for you.

[Albus Dumbledore]

Compare the birthrates of Israel and the palestinian territories. Differential birthrates in the long run mean demographic replacement.

[Хahar 🤔]

Arabs will outnumber Jews within the next 10 to 20 years, according to demographers.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C05EFDA173AF936A25754C0A9629C8B63&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=all

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

God gave that land to Abraham for the descendents of Israel back in Genesis, a book which foreshadows the rest of biblical history and prophecy.  As the following prophesy from Joel foretells, it is very unwise to attempt to undo the patterns set in Genesis:

Joel 2:30-3:2
30 “I will display wonders in the sky and on the earth,  Blood, fire and columns of smoke.
31 “The sun will be turned into darkness  And the moon into blood  Before the great and awesome day of the LORD comes.
32 “And it will come about that whoever calls on the name of the LORD  Will be delivered;  For on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem  There will be those who escape,  As the LORD has said,  Even among the survivors whom the LORD calls.
1 “For behold, in those days and at that time,  When I restore the fortunes of Judah and Jerusalem,
2 I will gather all the nations  And bring them down to the valley of Jehoshaphat.  Then I will enter into judgment with them there  On behalf of My people and My inheritance, Israel,  Whom they have scattered among the nations;  And they have divided up My land."

[Albus Dumbledore]

You said it yourself. It's god who gave them the land and not the west so therefore, the US and the western powers have zero obligation to back Israel. Glad to see you're backing me up.

[Хahar 🤔]

God gave that land to Abraham for the descendents of Israel back in Genesis, a book which foreshadows the rest of biblical history and prophecy.  As the following prophesy from Joel foretells, it is very unwise to attempt to undo the patterns set in Genesis:

Joel 2:30-3:2
30 “I will display wonders in the sky and on the earth,  Blood, fire and columns of smoke.
31 “The sun will be turned into darkness  And the moon into blood  Before the great and awesome day of the LORD comes.
32 “And it will come about that whoever calls on the name of the LORD  Will be delivered;  For on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem  There will be those who escape,  As the LORD has said,  Even among the survivors whom the LORD calls.
1 “For behold, in those days and at that time,  When I restore the fortunes of Judah and Jerusalem,
2 I will gather all the nations  And bring them down to the valley of Jehoshaphat.  Then I will enter into judgment with them there  On behalf of My people and My inheritance, Israel,  Whom they have scattered among the nations;  And they have divided up My land."

Such is the justification that many would give for Israel's gobbling up all the land between the river and the sea. But it's certainly insufficient.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

You said it yourself. It's god who gave them the land and not the west so therefore, the US and the western powers have zero obligation to back Israel. Glad to see you're backing me up.

But the U.S. is sharing a role of dividing up the land.

[Albus Dumbledore]

You said it yourself. It's god who gave them the land and not the west so therefore, the US and the western powers have zero obligation to back Israel. Glad to see you're backing me up.

But the U.S. is sharing a role of dividing up the land.

I wish. Ideally it'd be US assisting Hamas in clearing out west jerusalem/the west bank from settlers while B-52 bombers destroyed Israeli military bases/infrastructure/nuke silos. Israel has a long history of aggression in the region, repression of the arab majority(counting all the palestinian refugees) and theocratic policies. Logically, in this new and enlightened post-cold war world of liberal humanitarian intervention we should have invaded Israel instead of Iraq.

[Bono]

Do you know how Israel treats Jewish converts to Christianity?

[JohnFKennedy]

Someday, God willing Palestine will be free.

I'm all for a free Palestine, but not if it means eliminating Israel.  If Palestine had just taken what the UN gave them, they wouldn't be in this stateless situation.

Okay, you obviously didn't read my previous post on that matter so I'll quote the relevant section for you and say once again that there was no viable Palestinian leadership who could take what the UN 'gave' them.

Unwilling to negotiate? I would say it was rather hard for the Palestinians to negotiate at all given that the British had dismantled both the Higher Arab Committee and the Supreme Muslim Council in 1936, leaving Palestinian Arabs lacking in effective and united leadership. So who represents the Palestinian cause? The Arab League whose member states were facing mounting domestic unrest and in many cases had an intrinsic interest in there not being a viable Palestinian state: for instance Abdullah of Jordan's involvement in the 1948 war was primarily a bid to control the Palestinian part of the partition, rather than any meaningful attempt at establishing an independent Palestinian state as the Israeli historian Avi Shlaim has shown in his work on the 1948 war (I'll be happy to give a reference if you want). It's also not true to suggest that it has been 'the Palestinians who have backed away from the table every single time since'; certainly Palestinian negotiators have rejected proposals for peace but so too have the Israelis, for instance with the 2003 Geneva Accord.

I would further disagree with your claim that 'the Jews were perfectly willing to live side by side with Palestinians, in 1947'. This is not to say that all Jews demonstrated hostility towards Palestinians, but certainly many did. I wonder why you think all the Palestinians living in what became Israel left their homes and land? Let's not forget that the UNSCOP committee found that Jews constituted only about a third of the population and owned roughly six percent of the total land in Palestine. So what happened to those 400,000 Palestinians? Certainly they resisted - as probably anyone would if they were being forced out of their homes - but were no match for the disciplined Haganah, or the terrorist attacks of the Irgun who perpetrated some horrific acts including the Dayr Yassin massacre. Benny Morris is probably the leading expert today on the 1948 Palestinian refugee problem (The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem, 1947-1949) and he doesn't ascribe it to the orders of the Palestinian leadership (what leadership anyway?) or a planned Israeli policy but to the consequeneces of Haganah and Irgun actions; some were forced directly from their homes and others fled in fear at the prospect or were advised to leave by Arab forces in the region who subsequently ceded the villages to the Haganah (there was actually a good example of this on the BBC website yesterday).

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

Do you know how Israel treats Jewish converts to Christianity?

Does that matter?

Rom 11:29 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, God's gifts and his call are irrevocable.


And he will cleanse Israel upon his return:

Rom 11:26 The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.


Not according to their ways, but according to his promise:

Eze 20:44 Then you will know that I am the LORD when I have dealt with you for My name's sake, not according to your evil ways or according to your corrupt deeds, O house of Israel.

[Kaine for Senate '18]

Arabs will outnumber Jews within the next 10 to 20 years, according to demographers.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C05EFDA173AF936A25754C0A9629C8B63&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=all

Thanks; even though that article is 4 years old, and the information is probably even older.