Israel

[JohnFKennedy]

The best general books on the Middle East I have come across are James Gelvin's Modern Middle East: A History and William Cleveland's History of the Modern Middle East. There's also D.K. Fieldhouse's Western Imperialism in the Middle East which has a good hundred pages or so on the Mandate.

[Хahar 🤔]

Rocket hits Israel, second violation of Gaza truce

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If there is one thing we've learned it's that this will never stop until all the Jews are gone.  If every Jew left every settlement in the West Bank would anybody be shocked if two days later rockets started flying out of there?  Would anybody be shocked if the anti-Zionists around here defended the rocket attacks?

Don't be ridiculous. Would anyone here be surprised if Israel attacked Iran tommorow and all of the Zionists here defended Israel?

I wouldn't be.

[dead0man]

Unwilling to negotiate? I would say it was rather hard for the Palestinians to negotiate at all given that the British had dismantled both the Higher Arab Committee and the Supreme Muslim Council in 1936, leaving Palestinian Arabs lacking in effective and united leadership. So who represents the Palestinian cause? The Arab League whose member states were facing mounting domestic unrest and in many cases had an intrinsic interest in there not being a viable Palestinian state: for instance Abdullah of Jordan's involvement in the 1948 war was primarily a bid to control the Palestinian part of the partition, rather than any meaningful attempt at establishing an independent Palestinian state as the Israeli historian Avi Shlaim has shown in his work on the 1948 war (I'll be happy to give a reference if you want).

Even here though, Israel is far from the only "bad guy".  You'd think the Pali's would be really pissed at their own brothers for turning on them.  You'd expect Jews and Arabs not get along, but Arabs and Arabs?  Why is the state of Israel the one that takes all the sh**t when there are obviously more guilty parties involved?

[JohnFKennedy]

Unwilling to negotiate? I would say it was rather hard for the Palestinians to negotiate at all given that the British had dismantled both the Higher Arab Committee and the Supreme Muslim Council in 1936, leaving Palestinian Arabs lacking in effective and united leadership. So who represents the Palestinian cause? The Arab League whose member states were facing mounting domestic unrest and in many cases had an intrinsic interest in there not being a viable Palestinian state: for instance Abdullah of Jordan's involvement in the 1948 war was primarily a bid to control the Palestinian part of the partition, rather than any meaningful attempt at establishing an independent Palestinian state as the Israeli historian Avi Shlaim has shown in his work on the 1948 war (I'll be happy to give a reference if you want).

Even here though, Israel is far from the only "bad guy".  You'd think the Pali's would be really pissed at their own brothers for turning on them.  You'd expect Jews and Arabs not get along, but Arabs and Arabs?  Why is the state of Israel the one that takes all the sh**t when there are obviously more guilty parties involved?

I didn't say Israel was the only 'bad guy' and I never have. Certainly the Arab League were guilty in these circumstances, but I wouldn't necessarily say they were 'more guilty' given that Israeli forces also forced many Palestinians off their land, something which I mentioned in the original post but chose not to quote as it wasn't relevant to the point I was making to Ben.

I have qualms with your point about 'Jews and Arabs' and 'Arabs and Arabs'. Firstly, there are Jewish Arabs and secondly, because two people are of the same race doesn't automatically mean they'll get along, nor does it mean that their primary affiliation is as an 'Arab'; Pan-Arabism is hardly a potent political force in the modern world. People hold multiple and conflicting identities, it isn't quite as simple as you're point tries to suggest.

[dead0man]

Even here though, Israel is far from the only "bad guy".  You'd think the Pali's would be really pissed at their own brothers for turning on them.  You'd expect Jews and Arabs not get along, but Arabs and Arabs?  Why is the state of Israel the one that takes all the sh**t when there are obviously more guilty parties involved?

I didn't say Israel was the only 'bad guy' and I never have. Certainly the Arab League were guilty in these circumstances, but I wouldn't necessarily say they were 'more guilty' given that Israeli forces also forced many Palestinians off their land, something which I mentioned in the original post but chose not to quote as it wasn't relevant to the point I was making to Ben.

I meant "'other' guilty parties involved.".

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Agreed.

[Torie]

This near Atheist WASP cannot support any policy that would materially increase the risk that Jews living in Israel would be subjected to mass slaughter or expulsion. Once is enough. Never again. If that issue is not at the forefront of one's mind, as one consider policy options in the region, one in my view is profoundly misguided, and yes, morally blind.

Marginalizing folks' views on this issue solely because they happen to be Jewish by the way, is a pretty cheap shot, just as it would be to do the same thing because one happens to be Muslim and/or Arab. It's not fair; it's not right.

[Sbane]

This near Atheist WASP cannot support any policy that would materially increase the risk that Jews living in Israel would be subjected to mass slaughter or expulsion. Once is enough. Never again. If that issue is not at the forefront of one's mind, as one consider policy options in the region, one in my view is profoundly misguided, and yes, morally blind.

Which expulsion are you talking about?

[Torie]

This near Atheist WASP cannot support any policy that would materially increase the risk that Jews living in Israel would be subjected to mass slaughter or expulsion. Once is enough. Never again. If that issue is not at the forefront of one's mind, as one consider policy options in the region, one in my view is profoundly misguided, and yes, morally blind.

Which expulsion are you talking about?

In the subject case, it was mostly slaughter, since the victims were not accepted elsewhere. I don't consider expulsion to be an acceptable substitute as a redux. One must deal with the now, in any event.

[Torie]

Oh don't worry about that. He's just obsessed with one of the 20th century's smaller and less significant genocides.

But it happened to white people. One jewish life is worth ten sandns.

I don't recall a mass genocide of "sandns." "Sandns" happen to be "white" by the way, so playing the race card isn't very relevant.

[Sbane]

This near Atheist WASP cannot support any policy that would materially increase the risk that Jews living in Israel would be subjected to mass slaughter or expulsion. Once is enough. Never again. If that issue is not at the forefront of one's mind, as one consider policy options in the region, one in my view is profoundly misguided, and yes, morally blind.

Which expulsion are you talking about?

In the subject case, it was mostly slaughter, since the victims were not accepted elsewhere. I don't consider expulsion to be an acceptable substitute as a redux. One must deal with the now, in any event.

Talking about the germans huh? I understand the plight of the Jewish people but by creating Israel they created more sorrow in the Palestinian community. Obviously the blame is equally shared between the Israelis and the Arab league for f***ing up the '48 compromise but the real losers were the palestinian people. The palestinians have never got a fair compromise ever since the negotiations were always done by other arabs. They really need their own Mandela/Gandhi. I doubt if that is possibly anymore though.

[Torie]

Palestine had a fair deal with the one offered at the end of the Clinton term. They (Arafat) rejected it. They really don't want their own state, I don' think. With that would come responsibilities. What "they" prefer to wage is a demographic war. It won't work. The Jews in any event are not going to be removed for Israel for a very long time - not in my lifetime, and probably not yours. The Arabs need to be suffused with the values of pluralism. Until that happens, frankly I don't trust them.

[JohnFKennedy]

This near Atheist WASP cannot support any policy that would materially increase the risk that Jews living in Israel would be subjected to mass slaughter or expulsion. Once is enough. Never again. If that issue is not at the forefront of one's mind, as one consider policy options in the region, one in my view is profoundly misguided, and yes, morally blind.

Of course the solution should not be one in which the Israeli population is slaughtered or expelled, but why should the reverse not be true as well? It seems you're placing a higher premium on the life of an Israeli than that of a Palestinian. Is it the turn of the Palestinians for a genocide then?

[Torie]

This near Atheist WASP cannot support any policy that would materially increase the risk that Jews living in Israel would be subjected to mass slaughter or expulsion. Once is enough. Never again. If that issue is not at the forefront of one's mind, as one consider policy options in the region, one in my view is profoundly misguided, and yes, morally blind.

Of course the solution should not be one in which the Israeli population is slaughtered or expelled, but why should the reverse not be true as well? It seems you're placing a higher premium on the life of an Israeli than that of a Palestinian. Is it the turn of the Palestinians for a genocide then?

Why on God's Green Earth would you think  I advocate THAT? In any event, there is no mass genocide of Palestinians occurring, nor expulsion from where they live. Indeed, unlike Christians on the West Bank (almost all have left), Arabs living in Israel seem to find it quite tolerable.

[JohnFKennedy]

This near Atheist WASP cannot support any policy that would materially increase the risk that Jews living in Israel would be subjected to mass slaughter or expulsion. Once is enough. Never again. If that issue is not at the forefront of one's mind, as one consider policy options in the region, one in my view is profoundly misguided, and yes, morally blind.

Of course the solution should not be one in which the Israeli population is slaughtered or expelled, but why should the reverse not be true as well? It seems you're placing a higher premium on the life of an Israeli than that of a Palestinian. Is it the turn of the Palestinians for a genocide then?

Why on God's Green Earth would you think  I advocate THAT? In any event, there is no mass genocide of Palestinians occurring, nor expulsion from where they live. Indeed, unlike Christians on the West Bank (almost all have left), Arabs living in Israel seem to find it quite tolerable.

In 1948 masses of Palestinians were displaced by Israeli forces and I don't think that the Palestinian populations of Gaza and the West Bank find it quite tolerable.

[Albus Dumbledore]

The jewish settlers deserve anything that happens to them for their crimes. Just because white south africans were able to negotiate a non-bkoody end to apartheid doesn't mean the zionist settlers will.

[Sbane]

The jewish settlers deserve anything that happens to them for their crimes. Just because white south africans were able to negotiate a non-bkoody end to apartheid doesn't mean the zionist settlers will.

Let us hope for humanity's sake that they do. Honestly the middle east is too violent for rational talks. Also F*** the settlers who violate treaties, they deserve whatever happens to them.

[Flying Dog]

The Jewish AND Palestinian inhabitants have done nothing to deserve what they're enduring.
It's their respective governments that are out of control.

[Albus Dumbledore]

The only crime of the Palestinians was being nonwhite on soil that whites wanted for their own.

[ottermax]

The only crime of the Palestinians was being nonwhite on soil that whites wanted for their own.

That's true, but realize in context that 6 million of my people were murdered. You cannot place the blame entirely on the Jews. There is responsibility on both sides.

[Albus Dumbledore]

IT was one of the smaller genocides of the 20th century so I honestly don't care about them. Having 6 million of your people killed doesn't entitle you to take lands from other people.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

The only crime of the Palestinians was being nonwhite on soil that whites wanted for their own.

That's true, but realize in context that 6 million of my people were murdered. You cannot place the blame entirely on the Jews. There is responsibility on both sides.

Did the Palestinians murder those 6 million?

[Albus Dumbledore]

Germans are white and Palestinians not so the Palestinians have to suffer for German crimes. Sad isn't it?

[Хahar 🤔]

Germans are white and Palestinians not so the Palestinians have to suffer for German crimes. Sad isn't it?

It is the natural order. Subject races must naturally suffer for the crimes of the master races.

[Albus Dumbledore]

You learn well, young padawan.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

See how the troll works. Unusually impressive for Straha, though this is probably an easier subject than most to get people to take leave of their senses.