Israel

[Kaine for Senate '18]

While I don't like the use of the Holocaust to justify the State of Israel, Israel is a necessary country in the proper place.  If the Arabs would stop attacking, a peace settlement could be reached.  However, the Arabs refuse to have peace.  When the leaders of bordering countries are calling for your extermination, you need to be always prepared.

[Kaine for Senate '18]

BUMP

[Kaine for Senate '18]

Oh and dont give me that crap about the Jewish homeland and sh**t. Just like the native americans aint getting their land back, the jews also shouldnt have got their land back. Plus they moved VOLUNTARILY to Europe.

Not all that voluntarily; the Romans pretty much kicked them our in 70.

[Kaine for Senate '18]

This is not the homeland of the Jews, they invaded, forced out and killed the native population:
see here.

After 3,000 years, it becomes our homeland.  And besides, G-d promised it to us.

[Kaine for Senate '18]

This is not the homeland of the Jews, they invaded, forced out and killed the native population:
see here.

After 3,000 years, it becomes our homeland.  And besides, G-d promised it to us.

That sort of reasoning will get you nowhere.

Besides, didn't YHWH promise Israel in exchange for a bunch of rules that almost no Jews actually follow?

Yeah

[Kaine for Senate '18]

This is not the homeland of the Jews, they invaded, forced out and killed the native population:
see here.

After 3,000 years, it becomes our homeland.  And besides, G-d promised it to us.

That sort of reasoning will get you nowhere.

Besides, didn't YHWH promise Israel in exchange for a bunch of rules that almost no Jews actually follow?

Yeah

Then your argument is null and void. Unless, of course, you want to set up some Hasidic homeland.

That argument is being retired; I've never made it before, and I don't know why I just did.

[Kaine for Senate '18]

Israel turns 60 today.

Happy Birthday!

They turn 60 tomorrow, May 14.

[Kaine for Senate '18]

Odd, they did this last week on the 8th.  What's going on here?

Odd, they did this last week on the 8th.  What's going on here?

Weird Jewish calendar thing?

Yeah, we have a Lunar calendar, so they followed that.

[Kaine for Senate '18]

If you say that Jews don't deserve the land because they "invaded" it, then how do you explain the Arabs there. They invaded the region too. Why don't we just give the land back to the biblical Canaanites, the first people there? Wait, they don't exist! Israel has fought for that land and it is only half of the land that originally belonged to Jews in the bible. Israel is the only homeland for the Jews. Muslims have many countries for themselves. There are plenty of Christian majority countries as well. Israel does have many problems and they need to be fixed, but the Jews need a country of their own!

Yeah? After 3000 years, any land claims you have are meaningless. Or else Lebensraum would've made sense.

And I totally dispute that last sentence. Jews are doing very well for themselves in America and other Western countries.

Why don't Jews deserve a country? They were doing well in Germany for awhile, but then they got scapegoated. At least Muslims can leave if everyone starts to hate them, but without Israel, Jews would have nowhere to go.

so you think that if the U.S Government suddenly decided it wanted to commit genocide against Jews, they'd be safe in Israel?

No, but that is highly unlikely.

[Kaine for Senate '18]

If you say that Jews don't deserve the land because they "invaded" it, then how do you explain the Arabs there. They invaded the region too. Why don't we just give the land back to the biblical Canaanites, the first people there? Wait, they don't exist! Israel has fought for that land and it is only half of the land that originally belonged to Jews in the bible. Israel is the only homeland for the Jews. Muslims have many countries for themselves. There are plenty of Christian majority countries as well. Israel does have many problems and they need to be fixed, but the Jews need a country of their own!

Yeah? After 3000 years, any land claims you have are meaningless. Or else Lebensraum would've made sense.

And I totally dispute that last sentence. Jews are doing very well for themselves in America and other Western countries.

Why don't Jews deserve a country? They were doing well in Germany for awhile, but then they got scapegoated. At least Muslims can leave if everyone starts to hate them, but without Israel, Jews would have nowhere to go.

so you think that if the U.S Government suddenly decided it wanted to commit genocide against Jews, they'd be safe in Israel?

No, but that is highly unlikely.

Exactly.

I fail to see your point.

[Kaine for Senate '18]

How dare they defend themselves!

If a bunch of Arabs claimed Illinois as their personal territory, they'd have no right to defend themselves.

True, but the Jews didn't just claim Israel; the UN split the land, which had been owned by the UK, and the Arabs declared war, and lost, so they lost their land.

[Kaine for Senate '18]

There is a small rabbit in a room, surrounded by 12 angry, snarling wolves.  The wolves all pounce on the rabbit, but when the scuffle is over, the rabbit always comes out alive, no matter how many times the wolves attack it.

What does this metaphor mean?

[Kaine for Senate '18]

There is a small rabbit in a room, surrounded by 12 angry, snarling wolves.  The wolves all pounce on the rabbit, but when the scuffle is over, the rabbit always comes out alive, no matter how many times the wolves attack it.

What does this metaphor mean?

That the rabbit is pretty damn lucky, and...ummmm....irrelevant?

You're right about the rabbit, but this is a relevant metaphor, once you figure it out.

[Kaine for Senate '18]

Yes, it might be relevant if Israel's military force was comparable to a rabbit and all of its neighbors comparable to wolves. Rather than the other way around being more accurate.

I suppose it makes more sense in the original war for independence, back in '48; its lost its relevance now.

[Kaine for Senate '18]

Yes, it might be relevant if Israel's military force was comparable to a rabbit and all of its neighbors comparable to wolves. Rather than the other way around being more accurate.

I suppose it makes more sense in the original war for independence, back in '48; its lost its relevance now.

then why bring it up now if you weren't trying to make a point?

I thought it had a point; turns out I was wrong.

[Kaine for Senate '18]

Yes, it might be relevant if Israel's military force was comparable to a rabbit and all of its neighbors comparable to wolves. Rather than the other way around being more accurate.

I suppose it makes more sense in the original war for independence, back in '48; its lost its relevance now.

then why bring it up now if you weren't trying to make a point?

I thought it had a point; turns out I was wrong.

Yeah, because the rabbit is owned by a guy with a gun.
Went to the mosque this morning, saw a nice little birthday party for Israel. Part of the parking lot was cordoned off with signs reading, "ISRAELI CHECKPOINT AHEAD: CAUTION". In that space, there were a bunch of Palestinian flags flying, along with a flag each from Jordan, Egypt, Pakistan and Morocco (I have no idea why the last two were there).

Not sure if this was at all relevant.

It wasn't.

[Kaine for Senate '18]

Why the sudden silence in here?

Because it seems like every thread in this board ends up being a discussion of Israel.

[Kaine for Senate '18]

I think Al deleted a thread about Zimbabwe because it ended up being another discussion about Israel.  We should try to keep everything about Israel here.

[Kaine for Senate '18]

Israel is an overrated country and its government is super sh**tty. We should not fund their military or be a major ally as they can take care of themselves and obiously do not care about our funding to please us.

Wow.  I hold the complete opposite position.

[Kaine for Senate '18]

Anyway, I have to say I am concerned that anti-semitism and anti-Zionism seem to frequently been conflated in the modern world. The two are very very different.

I agree; people do seem to get them confused too easily, and there is a big difference.

[Kaine for Senate '18]

Someday, God willing Palestine will be free.

I'm all for a free Palestine, but not if it means eliminating Israel.  If Palestine had just taken what the UN gave them, they wouldn't be in this stateless situation.

[Kaine for Senate '18]

Someday, God willing Palestine will be free.

I'm all for a free Palestine, but not if it means eliminating Israel.  If Palestine had just taken what the UN gave them, they wouldn't be in this stateless situation.

They did. And Israel didn't like it. So Israel changed it.

How so?

[Kaine for Senate '18]

Demographics are going to crush Israel under the wheels of history. The only question will be how bloody will the transition from zionist settler herrenvolk democracy to secular democracy(best cast scenario) or islamist state(worse case scenario) be.

I've seen you mention how demographics will crush Israel, but I've never actually seen those stats.  Would you mind showing them to me?

[Kaine for Senate '18]

Arabs will outnumber Jews within the next 10 to 20 years, according to demographers.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C05EFDA173AF936A25754C0A9629C8B63&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=all

Thanks; even though that article is 4 years old, and the information is probably even older.

[Kaine for Senate '18]

Arabs will outnumber Jews within the next 10 to 20 years, according to demographers.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C05EFDA173AF936A25754C0A9629C8B63&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=all

One man.  One vote.  One time.  It just takes one election to kill a democracy.

And I doubt the Arabs will muster more voters than Jews in Israel.