Israel

[Хahar 🤔]

This is a place for me and Supersoulty (and anyone else) to talk about Israel.

[Хahar 🤔]

Well, this place is especially for Israel, since Hashemite has complained. Other countries have their own threads.

[Хahar 🤔]

Well, this place is especially for Israel, since Hashemite has complained. Other countries have their own threads.

Well... most of those countries are recongnized by 90% of the worlds population which makes Israel rather unique, wouldn't you say... it only being recongnized by about 5/6 of the world.

[Хahar 🤔]

Well, this place is especially for Israel, since Hashemite has complained. Other countries have their own threads.

Well... most of those countries are recongnized by 90% of the worlds population which makes Israel rather unique, wouldn't you say... it only being recongnized by about 5/6 of the world.

Wow... and here I thought that would make the debate devolve into some kinda Buckley/Vidal shouting match that ended in you calling my a crypto fascists and me calling you a queer.

Hey, it's the truth. I've got no problem with Israel per se.

[Хahar 🤔]

Alright... well here:

The t********s (no, I don't even use the word) are not monolithic, and saying you should build a big wall and deprive them of their livelihood to keep a few "t********s" out is akin to the Japanese internment.

The fact that you won't even call these people "terrorists" just goes to show how intellectually dishonest you are being.  First, you are trying to disavow the actions of these "few", but then you turn around and act as though what they are doing isn't that bad anyway.  You want to call them freedom fights.  Just admit it.

I'm Irish... there are Irish terrorist too, pal.  And I think my people were done a huge disservice by the English.  A terrorist is a terrorist, whether they praise Allah, or wear a green necktie and sing "Danny Boy".

I can hardly think any cause is worth strapping a bomb to yourself and blowing up a bus.  Or hiding a car bomb in a market place.  The people who are so pissed off about the Jews taking their land today were never alive during a time when things were any different.  Get over it!  Maybe if you did, then the Jews would feel the compulsion to keep the Palestinians where they can be watched.  If I went back and demanded some kinda compensation from Queen Elizabeth II would be laughed out of the room.  What makes you think the Arabs are worthy of any other reaction?

And last a checked, a very large number of Palestinians at least tacitly support the actions of the PLO And others, so don't even try to feed me that line.

Hey, I don't condone their actions. I don't call them terrorists because of the way the fearmongers in Washington portray "them" as a single entity, which "they" are not.

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The Jews were perfectly willing to live side by side with Palestinians, in 1947.  It was the Palestinians who were totally unwilling to negotiate.  Just as it has been the Palestinians who have backed away from the table every single time since.

As for the line, didn't the Arab attacks on Israel during the Six Day War kinda negate the line anyway?  Honestly, I couldn't care less, regardless.[/quote]

Well, you may not care, but if you had a giant fence in your backyard, you would.

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For strategic purposes, they took territory, yes.  Let me assure you, if Kuwait had kicked Iraq's ass all by itself back in 1991, then they would have taken territory, too.  The fact that we did it for them is the reason they didn't.  Israel took territory because no one else is really willing to help defend them.  Kuwait doesn't have to worry about that, ergo your analogy sucks.[/quote]

Okay, but still, why?

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Monetary compensation wasn't coming.  The reason for taking much of the territory, as I expressed before, was strategic.  As for the nation-state... Israel wanted to negotiate a Palestinian state from day one, but the Palestinians turned both Israel, and the ever precious U.N. down.
[/quote]

Strategic? Wouldn't holding territories like the Golan Heights just create trouble for them?

[Хahar 🤔]

Not as bad as the troubles they had when they didn't control the Golan.

Okay, but what about the Gaza Strip?

[Хahar 🤔]

What about it?

Posession of the Gaza Strip. What's in it for Israel?

[Хahar 🤔]

What about it?

Posession of the Gaza Strip. What's in it for Israel?

They don't have posession of the Gaza Strip

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What was in it?

[Хahar 🤔]

They were probably hoping for a little less terrorism in their own lands.  The whole "if we fight them 'over there' we won't have to fight them here" meme you hear from the Right in this country.  Except the "over there" in Israel is in their backyard.  Whether it worked or not is debatable I guess.  Since Israel has left Gaza, has attacks increased or decreased coming out of the Strip?

Why do you think Israel was there and in the Golan to this day?

To be honest, I can't think of a good reason, it's just the far-right pushing their imperialist goals.

[Хahar 🤔]

To be honest, I can't think of a good reason, it's just the far-right pushing their imperialist goals.

And what has made you come to that conclusion?

The boundaries of Isreal are nowhere near where they were originally supposed to be.

[Хahar 🤔]

To be honest, I can't think of a good reason, it's just the far-right pushing their imperialist goals.

And what has made you come to that conclusion?

The boundaries of Isreal are nowhere near where they were originally supposed to be.

What is "supposed to be"? The original state in 1948 or the pre-67 state? Their official boundaries are those of the pre-67 state. The rest of the land is occupied due to the fact that to withdraw from it would mean the destruction of Israel

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/97/UN_Partition_Plan_For_Palestine_1947.png

[Хahar 🤔]

To be honest, I can't think of a good reason, it's just the far-right pushing their imperialist goals.

And what has made you come to that conclusion?

The boundaries of Isreal are nowhere near where they were originally supposed to be.

As Tory said that could mean anything. The original Zionists actually wanted a state which would iirc stretch as far as the Euphrates - In modern day Iraq.

Why? Jews are no longer persecuted anywhere in the West.

In fact, that brings up an interesting question: why would anyone want to move to Israel?

[Хahar 🤔]

I just went through and read that article in National Geographic again last night. And you know what? I'm tired of Zionism. I'm tired of the H-word being thrown around as an excuse and justification for anything and everything. If you need Holocaust reparations, then make a Jewish state in Bavaria. Don't force reparations on an innocent populace. And I'm tired of the T-word, which has recently popped up. Terrorists are not the root of the world's evil. While I do not condone the Intifadas, they were certainly justified. You have brought it upon yourselves. And I'm tired of Israel's blatant disregard for international law. The Green Line's there for a reason. If you can't be safe within its confines, move somewhere with less bombs.

But the more I see, the less I feel that the negotiating table will accomplish anything. Talk is good when you have common ground to negotiate on. When there is none, the talks degenerate into a Munich. Let them fight it out. If you rebuild the Temple, you will see the Apocalypse with your own eyes.

If anyone wants to discuss these points with me, I will gladly. If not, that is all.

[Хahar 🤔]

Xahar, are you also tried of China's disregard for international law in Tibet?

Yes. Yes, I am.

[Хahar 🤔]

Xahar, are you also tried of China's disregard for international law in Tibet?

Yes. Yes, I am.

Glad to hear it.

Do you believe that rocket attacks on Israeli towns are justified?

If they are beyond the Green Line, yes.

Anyway, Bavaria was not the traditional home of the Jewish people (in Europe, that was Poland). Israel was. Plus, you'd also be forcing a Jewish state on innocent people too- not every German was involved in the Holocaust.

Exactly. Therefore, Israel was not created as compensation for the Holocaust, and therefore, the Holocaust bulls**t has no basis in fact.

[Хahar 🤔]

Attacks on innocent civilians (remember there are kids there) are completely unjustified- and that's what the Katyusha rockets, which are highly inaccurate, are. Would you say that the Red Army's raping of German women in 1945 was justified?

Had the German women moved to the occupied zone of Russia?

There had long been calls for an Israeli state. The Holocaust was the major reason why it happened though.

BTW, Xahar, if you're going to swear, at least spell it correctly.

There's a filter.

[Хahar 🤔]

Attacks on innocent civilians (remember there are kids there) are completely unjustified- and that's what the Katyusha rockets, which are highly inaccurate, are. Would you say that the Red Army's raping of German women in 1945 was justified?

Had the German women moved to the occupied zone of Russia?

I'm sorry, but how does that justify it?

That the Germans had willingly participated in the oppression of Russia. You're looking at tings on a level that is far too personal. War is impersonal.

[Хahar 🤔]

Attacks on innocent civilians (remember there are kids there) are completely unjustified- and that's what the Katyusha rockets, which are highly inaccurate, are. Would you say that the Red Army's raping of German women in 1945 was justified?

Had the German women moved to the occupied zone of Russia?

I'm sorry, but how does that justify it?

That the Germans had willingly participated in the oppression of Russia. You're looking at tings on a level that is far too personal. War is impersonal.

The women of Berlin certainly hadn't, at least not directly. Are you seriously condoning the murder of children?

Exactly. Therefore, it was not justified.

And, once again, you are looking at things far too personally. Children die in war. That is a fact. Whether I condone it is irrelevant.

[Хahar 🤔]

I'd say it was pretty relevant. For that, I'm adding you to my ignore list. Until you apologise.

That's kinda...harsh. Well, I've always wanted to know who ignores me.

What do you want me to apologize for?

[Хahar 🤔]

I don't support the deaths of children, but it's war. Would you have supported the bombings of Germany in WWII?

[Хahar 🤔]

serious:

israel is not the problem.

the arabs are.

Okay, how about we move all the Arabs to Germany and allow the Germans a second choice of places to live after the Arabs have had their turn? The Arabs are not the problem. The Germans are.

[Хahar 🤔]

sorry.

they have to accept the facts.

great britain won't get the usa back.

germany won't get the lost territories in eastern europe back.

france won't get louisiana back.

spain won't get floridas back.

spain won't get the netherlands back.

and (surprise)

the arabs won't get jerusalem or any other piece of israel back.

While I don't like the use of the Holocaust to justify the State of Israel, Israel is a necessary country in the proper place.  If the Arabs would stop attacking, a peace settlement could be reached.  However, the Arabs refuse to have peace.  When the leaders of bordering countries are calling for your extermination, you need to be always prepared.

I'd like Xahar to comment on these two points.

All of those territories were lost before WWII, when the gain of territory via conquest was still internationally acceptable.

[Хahar 🤔]

Xahar, I don't see what your principle is exactly. You don't think countries that attack other countries have themselves to blame if they lose territory in the process? And you think terrorism is justified? You should work a little at dropping your prejudices and think about whether there are any fundamental sound principles actually compatible with your views.

1. I'm talking about settlers beyond the Green Line.
2. Justified, to some extent.

[Хahar 🤔]

Xahar, I don't see what your principle is exactly. You don't think countries that attack other countries have themselves to blame if they lose territory in the process? And you think terrorism is justified? You should work a little at dropping your prejudices and think about whether there are any fundamental sound principles actually compatible with your views.

1. I'm talking about settlers beyond the Green Line.
2. Justified, to some extent.

THen it would be justified for Israel to exterminate the Arab population on Israeli territory, I suppose? At least to some extent?

Xahar, I don't see what your principle is exactly. You don't think countries that attack other countries have themselves to blame if they lose territory in the process? And you think terrorism is justified? You should work a little at dropping your prejudices and think about whether there are any fundamental sound principles actually compatible with your views.

1. I'm talking about settlers beyond the Green Line.
2. Justified, to some extent.

THen it would be justified for Israel to exterminate the Arab population on Israeli territory, I suppose? At least to some extent?

The ones that have moved there since 1947, yes, to some extent.

[Хahar 🤔]

I don't consider attacks on the IDF terrorism. Never said I did.

It's not just Nazi Germany who persecuted Jews. Virtually every country in Europe has at one point. The UK expelled them for about four centuries.

So you dump them among the Arabs?