why bother caring?

[ottermax]

Of course we must care. This is the most thrilling election we may ever see. No incumbents, the most diverse candidates ever, and a whole ton of issues that need to be addressed. Elections are a ton of fun, and cynicism ruins it. Things change quickly, and this is a time when things are changing faster than ever. Hope=Obama.

[Tetro Kornbluth]

Seriously.  Not a big deal.  Looking at things objectively, politics really don't matter that much.  George Bush does not affect your life that much.  We like to look at the headlines and think that our government is doing all this and that or whatever.  If you think about it, they don't do much at all.  You can live your whole life not knowing we even have a politically active government.  The changes, or lack there of, are not that drastic and will rarely affect our lives to the point where we really should be concerned.  We are all just obsessed with politics, leading to a reality in which the President and Congress actually matter for some reason.

As someone who most definetly lives inside a "Bourgeois Ghetto" all I can say is "What an apathetic life you lead".

I never said I don't care, I said it's easy not to.

Perhaps that wasn't something I was really addressing to you - just the people in the post you refer to. Coming from a similiar background I actually *agree* with you on one level (the perceptive one) and disagree with you on the other (the 'reality' - though the differences between the favoured Candidates on actual policy is fairly minimal; but since when policy matter in US elections?) but all it does is fill me with a greater desire to rebel against my social background more.

[HardRCafé]

Not everyone lives in a bourgeois ghetto you know.

Best reason to support Romney, though.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Your blatant attempts at dismissing the opinions of those wealthier than you as ignorant and elitist are beginning to shed light on the fact that you clearly have some kind of wealth related complex.  Why you feel the need to lift yourself up by attempting (and failing) to bring others down is beyond me.  I would think you'd want to act like you have dignity to prove that wealth does not buy class.  Now, I'm really not sure if you were asserting that I live in a "bourgeois ghetto" because that wouldn't make any sense, but knowing you I should expect that kind of knee-jerk comment.

I wuvs you too!!!11

But you've missed my point, which was only partially abusive. The belief that nothing the government does ever really effects people is one that can only be held by someone protected, in one way or another, from reality.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Aw, that's precious.  You actually think you know why I feel the way I do, as if you know what it's like to be in my position anyway.  I only believe that because I don't feel like I need to assign blame elsewhere or rationalize my own standing in society.  Remember - life is what you make of it, and it won't be very pleasant if you're constantly comparing yourself to those you will never be comparable to.

Very funny, kid. This is satire, right? Right?

And you continue to ignore my basic point. Why?

[Tetro Kornbluth]

Very funny, kid. This is satire, right? Right?

And you continue to ignore my basic point. Why?

If only this type of disagreement was satirical...

Actually, your "basic point" didn't exist until you decided to change your post from another sad attack to a legitimate point.  My point was quite clear however: Your accusations are all the same and not based on any facts, just animosity towards those more fortunate than you and are thus moot.  Your "arguements" really mean nothing to me because I can see right through all your posts and know you are only targetting me for my social status.

No; he's targetting you because your original statement defied reality.

[Tetro Kornbluth]

No; he's targetting you because your original statement defied reality.

Really?  No, not at all.  He does this all the time.  And by the way, low-income Americans are more likely to stay home from the polls so rich does not equal apathetic.  Reality says rich people care more and vote more while poor people care less and vote less.  Obviously those who care less don't feel as affected or else they would care more.

All that shows is that the poorer feel more disconnected by the political system. Which should be a shock to... absolutely no-one.

And of course levels of voting how nothing to do with 'apathy'. I'd say the Anarchistic inclined community activist is much less apathetic than silly rich people with trivial lives who live in places like Putnam County, NY and always vote Republican to a tee. As that is what you do in Putnam.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Actually, your "basic point" didn't exist until you decided to change your post from another sad attack to a legitimate point.

If you think that then you still don't get what I was driving at

[opebo]

Hope=Obama.

Hillary has already killed hope with racism, ottermax.  Sorry to say.

...The poor know that the government won't make a difference...

Well, there are a few problems with that statement.  First, of course the government already makes ALL the difference, allocating to everyone precisely what they've got.  But if you meant that it will never change from the current policy of allocating everything to your tiny minority, you might well be right..   Still, there was that brief post-war period when some small concessions otherwise were made, so hope is not, I suppose, historically baseless.

[Terrabus]

By all means, let's increase apathy!  Besides, American Idol is just getting interesting. 

Besides, there are so many ways to divide us even further.  Rich/wealthy/upper middle class.  It doesn't matter, our fate will be the same. 

I used to think politics was better than sex.  Now I see that it's a distraction from real issues and a well choreographed production.  We are given the illusion of making a difference.  The actors don't notice us because we're not in the script. 

[opebo]

Besides, there are so many ways to divide us even further.  Rich/wealthy/upper middle class.  It doesn't matter, our fate will be the same.

I think you may have left out a few people there, Terrabus, though your point is well taken about the forum demographic.

As for the 'fate all the same' crapola, sure it will be, if you mean death, but meantime some get to have fun and others get to suffer for them.

[Person Man]

Actually, your "basic point" didn't exist until you decided to change your post from another sad attack to a legitimate point.

If you think that then you still don't get what I was driving at

These arguements aren't going to go anywhere if you're just going to keep bowing out at the most convenient times.  You and I both know we understand each other perfectly.  Cheap cop-outs like "you just don't get it" aren't going to work.  Either have enough to back up your whiny little assaults on wealth or back off.  I know your point and you know I know your point, as I proved in my responses.  I'm not going to keep going on and on dragging you back into the arguement by proving time and time again that I know what you're saying, because we both already know I do.  I shouldn't have to spell out your own views again for you before you'll recognize my points.

I don't know what you are blabbing about but I think its up to you to prove that you "get it".

[Gustaf]

Fezzy does have a point in that most elections do not alter the lives of that many people that much. Of course, those who live on welfare are very dependent on the government (which is one of the biggest moral troubles with the welfare state) but the fundamentals of the welfare state are not usually changed all that much. Right-wingers will always claim that every tax-increase is an attack on freedom and left-wingers will claim that every cut in benefits means the downfall of our civilization but those prophecies seldom come true.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Fezzy does have a point in that most elections do not alter the lives of that many people that much.

If he had written that I don't think I would have complained in quite the way that I actually did.

What he wrote was this:

George Bush does not affect your life that much.  We like to look at the headlines and think that our government is doing all this and that or whatever.  If you think about it, they don't do much at all.  You can live your whole life not knowing we even have a politically active government.  The changes, or lack there of, are not that drastic and will rarely affect our lives to the point where we really should be concerned.  We are all just obsessed with politics, leading to a reality in which the President and Congress actually matter for some reason.

This is the sort of argument that you can only really believe if you live in a "bourgeois ghetto". I suppose when you are of a certain class the decisions (or indecisions) of government do seem remote and basically irrelevant. But this does not mean that they actually are irrelevant to the rest of the population.

[Gabu]

Aw, that's precious.  You actually think you know why I feel the way I do, as if you know what it's like to be in my position anyway.  I only believe that because I don't feel like I need to assign blame elsewhere or rationalize my own standing in society.  Remember - life is what you make of it, and it won't be very pleasant if you're constantly comparing yourself to those you will never be comparable to.

Wow, no offense, but I don't think I could possibly have written something in the persona of "rich kid" better than that if I had tried.

[Gustaf]

Fezzy does have a point in that most elections do not alter the lives of that many people that much.

If he had written that I don't think I would have complained in quite the way that I actually did.

What he wrote was this:

George Bush does not affect your life that much.  We like to look at the headlines and think that our government is doing all this and that or whatever.  If you think about it, they don't do much at all.  You can live your whole life not knowing we even have a politically active government.  The changes, or lack there of, are not that drastic and will rarely affect our lives to the point where we really should be concerned.  We are all just obsessed with politics, leading to a reality in which the President and Congress actually matter for some reason.

This is the sort of argument that you can only really believe if you live in a "bourgeois ghetto". I suppose when you are of a certain class the decisions (or indecisions) of government do seem remote and basically irrelevant. But this does not mean that they actually are irrelevant to the rest of the population.

I have the feeling he may have been provoked into that position, but perhaps you're right. I merely thought I'd point out something that could have some bearing. But even with the nastier connotations he brought in there is still the point that living on welfare benefit A or living on welfare benefit A+B will perhaps be less of a difference than we sometimes think. There are exceptions to this of course, especially when things become more extreme, but the difference between being poor and unemployed in a high-tax country like Sweden and in a low-tax country like the United States is there but I suspect it isn't as big as it is sometimes made out to be. I guess what I'm getting at is that the difference between various policy proposals as long as they don't change your fundamental position in society is going to have less of an impact than is often made out in public debate.

But I understand that small monetary changed and the like will affect you a lot more if you're poor than if you're rich. I would hope Fezzy would understand that too.

[MODU]

Sounds like a few of you need political prozac.

[perdedor]

you people don't get it...  it's not about Obama or delegates or 2016...  but I'm alone, I realize that, until one day when I'm not

To be honest, you're begining to sound like another pissy youth. I understand, because I am in the same boat. You're not as different as you think, very few of us are so content with the status quo, particularly as it pertains to the laziness and apathy of the American populace. The real problem lying in that no one is willing to admit they are part of the problem. Keep your head up and stay involved, things change all of the time. One day, just maybe, if you don't become part of the problem...you can help to change things in a way that you would find happiness in.

[Jake]

Really?  No, not at all.  He does this all the time.  And by the way, low-income Americans are more likely to stay home from the polls so rich does not equal apathetic.  Reality says rich people care more and vote more while poor people care less and vote less.  Obviously those who care less don't feel as affected or else they would care more.

No sorry, you're completely missing it. Those in the upper class and most in the middle class can live their lives without worrying about what the government does, but what about those who have to worry about government supplied health care, disability payments, unemployment, food stamps, housing? What about those in the inner cities who hope the government will step in and fund schools, after school programs to get kids away from drugs, and infrastructure repairs? What about a poor kid who can only get a job in the military and gets deployed?

But I agree, many in this country can ignore the government for 364 days and pay attention only to grumble when they send the tax form in. The rest have a stake in what happens and I happen to care what government does for them, whether they do or not is not the question.

[HardRCafé]

You confuse stating your position flippantly with proving fact.