Supersoulty's Christian Theological Debate Thread

[12th Doctor]

I thought it would be a good idea to start an on going theological debate discussion thread for Christian topics.  So here we are.

Since I don't want to leave the impression that I am in anyway steering the discussion, I will let someone else start up with a topic.

[Senator Ben]

My major problem with Christian doctrine is the idea that they use the Hebrew Bible to justify Jesus as the Messiah.  If you look at the specific requirements for a Jewish Messiah, which is what people claimed Jesus was, he did not fulfill any of those requirements.  He didn't overthrow the Romans, he didn't rebuild the Temple, and he didn't bring peace to the world.

Also, the common passge in Isaiah about a "virgin" conceiving is not accurate.  The Hebrew says that the child shall be born in wedlock.  It doesn't have to be a virgin, just an unmarried women.

[frenger]

My major problem with Christian doctrine is the idea that they use the Hebrew Bible to justify Jesus as the Messiah.  If you look at the specific requirements for a Jewish Messiah, which is what people claimed Jesus was, he did not fulfill any of those requirements.  He didn't overthrow the Romans, he didn't rebuild the Temple, and he didn't bring peace to the world.

Also, the common passge in Isaiah about a "virgin" conceiving is not accurate.  The Hebrew says that the child shall be born in wedlock.  It doesn't have to be a virgin, just an unmarried women.

What OT verses are you reffering that lay down these "requirements"?

[dead0man]

What OT verses are you reffering that lay down these "requirements"?

Mostly Isaiah.  link

Most of the textual requirements concerning the messiah, what he will do, and what will be done during his reign are located within the Book of Isaiah, although requirements are mentioned by other prophets as well.

The Sanhedrin will be re-established (Isaiah 1:26)
Once he is King, leaders of other nations will look to him for guidance. (Isaiah 2:4)
The whole world will worship the One God of Israel (Isaiah 2:17)
He will be descended from King David (Isaiah 11:1) via Solomon (1 Chron. 22:8-10)
The Moshiach will be a man of this world, an observant Jew with "fear of God" (Isaiah 11:2)
Evil and tyranny will not be able to stand before his leadership (Isaiah 11:4)
Knowledge of God will fill the world (Isaiah 11:9)
He will include and attract people from all cultures and nations (Isaiah 11:10)
All Israelites will be returned to their homeland (Isaiah 11:12)
Death will be swallowed up forever (Isaiah 25:
There will be no more hunger or illness, and death will cease (Isaiah 25:
All of the dead will rise again (Isaiah 26:19)
The Jewish people will experience eternal joy and gladness (Isaiah 51:11)
He will be a messenger of peace (Isaiah 52:7)
Nations will end up recognizing the wrongs they did to Israel (Isaiah 52:13-53:5)
The peoples of the world will turn to the Jews for spiritual guidance (Zechariah 8:23)
The ruined cities of Israel will be restored (Ezekiel 16:55)
Weapons of war will be destroyed (Ezekiel 39:9)
The Temple will be rebuilt (Ezekiel 40) resuming many of the suspended mitzvot
He will then perfect the entire world to serve God together (Zephaniah 3:9)
Jews will know the Torah without study (Jeremiah 31:33)[original research?]
He will give you all the worthy desires of your heart (Psalms 37:4)
He will take the barren land and make it abundant and fruitful (Isaiah 51:3, Amos 9:13-15, Ezekiel 36:29-30, Isaiah 11:6-9)

[Senator Ben]

What OT verses are you reffering that lay down these "requirements"?

Mostly Isaiah.  link

Most of the textual requirements concerning the messiah, what he will do, and what will be done during his reign are located within the Book of Isaiah, although requirements are mentioned by other prophets as well.

The Sanhedrin will be re-established (Isaiah 1:26)
Once he is King, leaders of other nations will look to him for guidance. (Isaiah 2:4)
The whole world will worship the One God of Israel (Isaiah 2:17)
He will be descended from King David (Isaiah 11:1) via Solomon (1 Chron. 22:8-10)
The Moshiach will be a man of this world, an observant Jew with "fear of God" (Isaiah 11:2)
Evil and tyranny will not be able to stand before his leadership (Isaiah 11:4)
Knowledge of God will fill the world (Isaiah 11:9)
He will include and attract people from all cultures and nations (Isaiah 11:10)
All Israelites will be returned to their homeland (Isaiah 11:12)
Death will be swallowed up forever (Isaiah 25:
There will be no more hunger or illness, and death will cease (Isaiah 25:
All of the dead will rise again (Isaiah 26:19)
The Jewish people will experience eternal joy and gladness (Isaiah 51:11)
He will be a messenger of peace (Isaiah 52:7)
Nations will end up recognizing the wrongs they did to Israel (Isaiah 52:13-53:5)
The peoples of the world will turn to the Jews for spiritual guidance (Zechariah 8:23)
The ruined cities of Israel will be restored (Ezekiel 16:55)
Weapons of war will be destroyed (Ezekiel 39:9)
The Temple will be rebuilt (Ezekiel 40) resuming many of the suspended mitzvot
He will then perfect the entire world to serve God together (Zephaniah 3:9)
Jews will know the Torah without study (Jeremiah 31:33)[original research?]
He will give you all the worthy desires of your heart (Psalms 37:4)
He will take the barren land and make it abundant and fruitful (Isaiah 51:3, Amos 9:13-15, Ezekiel 36:29-30, Isaiah 11:6-9)

Thank you for the link.  As you can see, none of these things actually occurred during Jesus's time, or in the 2,000 years since he was crucified.  Especially the part about the Jews living in eternal joy and gladness.  Based on these requirements, I can say that Jesus is not the Messiah based on Jewish texts.

[Harry]

Is it a sin to look at porn/masturbate?

[Senator Ben]

Is it a sin to look at porn/masturbate?

In the Hebrew Bible, G-d strikes down someone for masturbating, so I would guess yes.  I don't think pornography is by itself a sin, but if you masturbate, then yes, it is a sin.

[Tender Branson]

Is it a sin to look at porn/masturbate?

In the Hebrew Bible, G-d strikes down someone for masturbating, so I would guess yes.  I don't think pornography is by itself a sin, but if you masturbate, then yes, it is a sin.

Onan was struck down because he refused to give children to his deceased brother's wife.  The story does not refer to masturbation in any way.  In fact, masturbation is not mentioned in the Bible.

But that does mean it is not a sin.  Jesus says that when you look on a woman with lust, you are committing adultery in your heart.  Obviously pornography involves committing adultery with many women in your heart.  Sex is a gift for marriage.

[afleitch]

Obviously pornography involves committing adultery with many women in your heart. 

I take it that it doesn't apply to your signature then. Or is there a sliding scale?

[Reluctant Republican]

Could anyone explain to me what the Nephilim are? I've heard they were fallen angels, but no one seems to be sure on this. Also, did they breed with us? I have also heard that, and while that may be "out there" I wonder if their's any evidence that they did.

[afleitch]

Also, did they breed with us? I have also heard that, and while that may be "out there" I wonder if their's any evidence that they did.

Short answer - no.

[Senator Ben]

Also, did they breed with us? I have also heard that, and while that may be "out there" I wonder if their's any evidence that they did.

Short answer - no.

Not in the Canon, but if you look in the Book of Enoch, I'm pretty sure it is mentioned.  Or maybe it was Jubilee.  One of those two books.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

What OT verses are you reffering that lay down these "requirements"?

Mostly Isaiah.  link

Most of the textual requirements concerning the messiah, what he will do, and what will be done during his reign are located within the Book of Isaiah, although requirements are mentioned by other prophets as well.

The Sanhedrin will be re-established (Isaiah 1:26)
Once he is King, leaders of other nations will look to him for guidance. (Isaiah 2:4)
The whole world will worship the One God of Israel (Isaiah 2:17)
He will be descended from King David (Isaiah 11:1) via Solomon (1 Chron. 22:8-10)
The Moshiach will be a man of this world, an observant Jew with "fear of God" (Isaiah 11:2)
Evil and tyranny will not be able to stand before his leadership (Isaiah 11:4)
Knowledge of God will fill the world (Isaiah 11:9)
He will include and attract people from all cultures and nations (Isaiah 11:10)
All Israelites will be returned to their homeland (Isaiah 11:12)
Death will be swallowed up forever (Isaiah 25:
There will be no more hunger or illness, and death will cease (Isaiah 25:
All of the dead will rise again (Isaiah 26:19)
The Jewish people will experience eternal joy and gladness (Isaiah 51:11)
He will be a messenger of peace (Isaiah 52:7)
Nations will end up recognizing the wrongs they did to Israel (Isaiah 52:13-53:5)
The peoples of the world will turn to the Jews for spiritual guidance (Zechariah 8:23)
The ruined cities of Israel will be restored (Ezekiel 16:55)
Weapons of war will be destroyed (Ezekiel 39:9)
The Temple will be rebuilt (Ezekiel 40) resuming many of the suspended mitzvot
He will then perfect the entire world to serve God together (Zephaniah 3:9)
Jews will know the Torah without study (Jeremiah 31:33)[original research?]
He will give you all the worthy desires of your heart (Psalms 37:4)
He will take the barren land and make it abundant and fruitful (Isaiah 51:3, Amos 9:13-15, Ezekiel 36:29-30, Isaiah 11:6-9)

Thank you for the link.  As you can see, none of these things actually occurred during Jesus's time, or in the 2,000 years since he was crucified.  Especially the part about the Jews living in eternal joy and gladness.  Based on these requirements, I can say that Jesus is not the Messiah based on Jewish texts.

gee, any novice reader of the bible knows that these events are spread across the first and second coming.  in other words, you're not looking too smart right about now.

[Senator Ben]

What OT verses are you reffering that lay down these "requirements"?

Mostly Isaiah.  link

Most of the textual requirements concerning the messiah, what he will do, and what will be done during his reign are located within the Book of Isaiah, although requirements are mentioned by other prophets as well.

The Sanhedrin will be re-established (Isaiah 1:26)
Once he is King, leaders of other nations will look to him for guidance. (Isaiah 2:4)
The whole world will worship the One God of Israel (Isaiah 2:17)
He will be descended from King David (Isaiah 11:1) via Solomon (1 Chron. 22:8-10)
The Moshiach will be a man of this world, an observant Jew with "fear of God" (Isaiah 11:2)
Evil and tyranny will not be able to stand before his leadership (Isaiah 11:4)
Knowledge of God will fill the world (Isaiah 11:9)
He will include and attract people from all cultures and nations (Isaiah 11:10)
All Israelites will be returned to their homeland (Isaiah 11:12)
Death will be swallowed up forever (Isaiah 25:
There will be no more hunger or illness, and death will cease (Isaiah 25:
All of the dead will rise again (Isaiah 26:19)
The Jewish people will experience eternal joy and gladness (Isaiah 51:11)
He will be a messenger of peace (Isaiah 52:7)
Nations will end up recognizing the wrongs they did to Israel (Isaiah 52:13-53:5)
The peoples of the world will turn to the Jews for spiritual guidance (Zechariah 8:23)
The ruined cities of Israel will be restored (Ezekiel 16:55)
Weapons of war will be destroyed (Ezekiel 39:9)
The Temple will be rebuilt (Ezekiel 40) resuming many of the suspended mitzvot
He will then perfect the entire world to serve God together (Zephaniah 3:9)
Jews will know the Torah without study (Jeremiah 31:33)[original research?]
He will give you all the worthy desires of your heart (Psalms 37:4)
He will take the barren land and make it abundant and fruitful (Isaiah 51:3, Amos 9:13-15, Ezekiel 36:29-30, Isaiah 11:6-9)

Thank you for the link.  As you can see, none of these things actually occurred during Jesus's time, or in the 2,000 years since he was crucified.  Especially the part about the Jews living in eternal joy and gladness.  Based on these requirements, I can say that Jesus is not the Messiah based on Jewish texts.

gee, any novice reader of the bible knows that these events are spread across the first and second coming.  in other words, you're not looking too smart right about now.

The Jewish Messiah was not supposed to have a Second Coming, he is just a man.

[Grad Students are the Worst]

Throwing this over to Chris...

[12th Doctor]

Throwing this over to Chris...

I'm getting to it.  Busy day tomorrow, I have two policy briefs to prepare.

[JSojourner]

Could anyone explain to me what the Nephilim are? I've heard they were fallen angels, but no one seems to be sure on this. Also, did they breed with us? I have also heard that, and while that may be "out there" I wonder if their's any evidence that they did.

Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh you do NOT wanna go there....

[Senator Ben]

Could anyone explain to me what the Nephilim are? I've heard they were fallen angels, but no one seems to be sure on this. Also, did they breed with us? I have also heard that, and while that may be "out there" I wonder if their's any evidence that they did.

The Nephilim, to the best of my memory, are not mentioned in the Hebrew Bible.  Maybe I'm wrong, but I've only seen them in the Apocrypha.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

The Jewish Messiah was not supposed to have a Second Coming, he is just a man.

please cite book chapter and verse that lead you to this conclusion.

It's no big secret that, prior to the birth of Jesus Christ, Judaism tried to reconcile all the things the Messiah was to supposed to accomplish as written in scripture, and they couldn't get it to fit one individual, so they referred to two Messiah's:  Messiah Son of Joseph (the one that suffers and dies) would appear first and proceed Messiah Son of David (the one that reigns).  They also believed that Messiah Son of David would resurrect Messiah Son of Joseph.

It was a very astonishing and insightful interpretive conclusion by the Jews, for they understood the paradox of the two different roles of the Messiah.  Christianity solves the paradox completely:  one Messiah who first comes to suffer and be rejected by his brother Jews and die, only to be resurrected and returns to conquer and reign.

Oh, one more note, Jesus' earthly father (or step-father, to be more accurate) was named Joseph, the husband of Mary.  So Jesus really was, or so it was thought, the "Son of Joseph". (Luke 3:24,30; John 1:45;6:42)

[Senator Ben]

The Jewish Messiah was not supposed to have a Second Coming, he is just a man.

please cite book chapter and verse that lead you to this conclusion.

It's no big secret that, prior to the birth of Jesus Christ, Judaism tried to reconcile all the things the Messiah was to supposed to accomplish as written in scripture, and they couldn't get it to fit one individual, so they referred to two Messiah's:  Messiah Son of Joseph (the one that suffers and dies) would appear first and proceed Messiah Son of David (the one that reigns).  They also believed that Messiah Son of David would resurrect Messiah Son of Joseph.

That is incorrect, there is only 1 Messiah, and he is to be a mortal man, descended from King David.  Isaiah 11:2

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

That is incorrect, there is only 1 Messiah

no argument there

---

, and he is to be a mortal man, descended from King David.  Isaiah 11:2

Isa 11:2 "And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;"

there is nothing in that verse stating the Messiah would be purely human, and if you read the New Testament, you'll see that Isa 11:2 was fulfilled in Jesus.

Have you actually read the bible?

[Senator Ben]

Read these specific requirements, and you'll notice Jesus did not fulfill any of them http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Messiah#Textual_requirements

[Verily]

First off, the attempt to legitimize Jesus as a descendant of David, even if you assume that the line created was not mostly fictional, led to Joseph. And Jesus was not related Joseph, if you accept later church doctrine (though it entirely possible that those linking Jesus to David did not believe Jesus to be the son of God, merely the Messiah, given that it surfaced before any of the Gospels).

[12th Doctor]

Read these specific requirements, and you'll notice Jesus did not fulfill any of them http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Messiah#Textual_requirements

Do you really have any knowledge of Christian theology?  It's not an attack, its a serious question, because alot of these points are answered by very basic points of Christian teaching.

   

* The Sanhedrin will be re-established (Isaiah 1:26)

Metaphorical... for a Catholic standpoint, this would be the establishment of the Church structure.  What is merely being said here is that there will once again be elders capable of making decisions for the faithful.  In this case, the Bishops, who are the direct successors of the Twelve, represent the body of the Council.  The Sanhedrin were ruled over by the Prime Minister (or Chief Steward) of the House of David and later the High Priest... the man that Catholics now call the "Pope".

This is a point that is lost on even most Jews today, but Catholics didn't "make up" the way the our Bishops are dressed.  The design for their outfits was taken largely from the design of those worn by the Sanhedrin members.  If you ever watch Raiders of the Lost Ark the guy who opens the Ark isn't wearing a Catholic Bishop's outfit.  If you look real closely, you will see there are Jewish characters on the robes and headdress.  This is accurate.

   

* Once he is King, leaders of other nations will look to him for guidance. (Isaiah 2:4)

Jesus "became King" when he died on the cross and word of his teachings spread.  In the end, people did, indeed, bow before him.

   

* The whole world will worship the One God of Israel (Isaiah 2:17)

A prophesy yet to be fulfilled.

   

* He will be descended from King David (Isaiah 11:1) via Solomon (1 Chron. 22:8-10)

Read the beginning of the Book of Matthew.

   

* The Moshiach will be a man of this world, an observant Jew with "fear of God" (Isaiah 11:2)

Most Christians believe that Jesus was fully man and fully God.  In fact, two of the primary heresies wiped out in the early Church were Monotheisms (the belief that Jesus only had one nature, and that was divine) and Arianism (the belief that Jesus was not God, but rather "the greatest of all creatures" in God's order).  Both of which opposed the fundamental tenets of Nicaea.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicene_Creed

If you actually want to understand Christian belief then the Creed is a good place to start.

It is clear by the scriptures that he was an observant Jew.

   

* Evil and tyranny will not be able to stand before his leadership (Isaiah 11:4)

Again, Christians believe that no evil can stand before the name and Word of Christ, but as an observant Jew, I wouldn't expect you to believe that.

   

* Knowledge of God will fill the world (Isaiah 11:9)
    * He will include and attract people from all cultures and nations (Isaiah 11:10)

Probably fair to say that the knowledge of the one God is at least far more extensive than it was in Jewish times, and indeed, Jesus claims followers in all nations.

   

* All Israelites will be returned to their homeland (Isaiah 11:12)

Actually, the passage does not say this.  If you read it in context, then you see that all that is being said is that God will "assemble" the dispersed of Judah and reclaim the remnant of his people.  Not nearly as explicit as they try to make it sound.

   

* Death will be swallowed up forever (Isaiah 25:

Christians believe that through his suffering, death and resurrection, Christ redeemed man and destroyed death.

   

* There will be no more hunger or illness, and death will cease (Isaiah 25:
    * All of the dead will rise again (Isaiah 26:19)
    * The Jewish people will experience eternal joy and gladness (Isaiah 51:11)
    * Nations will end up recognizing the wrongs they did to Israel (Isaiah 52:13-53:5)
    * The peoples of the world will turn to the Jews for spiritual guidance (Zechariah 8:23)
    * The ruined cities of Israel will be restored (Ezekiel 16:55)
    * Weapons of war will be destroyed (Ezekiel 39:9)
    * The Temple will be rebuilt (Ezekiel 40) resuming many of the suspended mitzvot
    * He will then perfect the entire world to serve God together (Zephaniah 3:9)

All of this is covered mostly in Revelations, which isn't my strongest area... this is all filed under the "yet to come" category with the Second Coming.

* He will be a messenger of peace (Isaiah 52:7)

As Jesus was.

   

* He will give you all the worthy desires of your heart (Psalms 37:4)

Jesus spent alot of time taking about "worthy" desires, as did Paul after him.  Needless to say, these things are possessions, but rather are found through a love of God and one another.

   

* He will take the barren land and make it abundant and fruitful (Isaiah 51:3, Amos 9:13-15, Ezekiel 36:29-30, Isaiah 11:6-9)

The barren land is the land of the Gentiles.  Again... metaphor.  Jesus uses this metaphor is several parables referring to faith.  Bringing faith to people who are not Jews is making the "barren land fruitful.

[Senator Ben]

Read these specific requirements, and you'll notice Jesus did not fulfill any of them http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Messiah#Textual_requirements

Do you really have any knowledge of Christian theology?  It's not an attack, its a serious question, because alot of these points are answered by very basic points of Christian teaching.

   

* The Sanhedrin will be re-established (Isaiah 1:26)

Metaphorical... for a Catholic standpoint, this would be the establishment of the Church structure.  What is merely being said here is that there will once again be elders capable of making decisions for the faithful.  In this case, the Bishops, who are the direct successors of the Twelve, represent the body of the Council.  The Sanhedrin were ruled over by the Prime Minister (or Chief Steward) of the House of David and later the High Priest... the man that Catholics now call the "Pope".

This is a point that is lost on even most Jews today, but Catholics didn't "make up" the way the our Bishops are dressed.  The design for their outfits was taken largely from the design of those worn by the Sanhedrin members.  If you ever watch Raiders of the Lost Ark the guy who opens the Ark isn't wearing a Catholic Bishop's outfit.  If you look real closely, you will see there are Jewish characters on the robes and headdress.  This is accurate.

   

* Once he is King, leaders of other nations will look to him for guidance. (Isaiah 2:4)

Jesus "became King" when he died on the cross and word of his teachings spread.  In the end, people did, indeed, bow before him.

   

* The whole world will worship the One God of Israel (Isaiah 2:17)

A prophesy yet to be fulfilled.

   

* He will be descended from King David (Isaiah 11:1) via Solomon (1 Chron. 22:8-10)

Read the beginning of the Book of Matthew.

   

* The Moshiach will be a man of this world, an observant Jew with "fear of God" (Isaiah 11:2)

Most Christians believe that Jesus was fully man and fully God.  In fact, two of the primary heresies wiped out in the early Church were Monotheisms (the belief that Jesus only had one nature, and that was divine) and Arianism (the belief that Jesus was not God, but rather "the greatest of all creatures" in God's order).  Both of which opposed the fundamental tenets of Nicaea.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicene_Creed

If you actually want to understand Christian belief then the Creed is a good place to start.

It is clear by the scriptures that he was an observant Jew.

   

* Evil and tyranny will not be able to stand before his leadership (Isaiah 11:4)

Again, Christians believe that no evil can stand before the name and Word of Christ, but as an observant Jew, I wouldn't expect you to believe that.

   

* Knowledge of God will fill the world (Isaiah 11:9)
    * He will include and attract people from all cultures and nations (Isaiah 11:10)

Probably fair to say that the knowledge of the one God is at least far more extensive than it was in Jewish times, and indeed, Jesus claims followers in all nations.

   

* All Israelites will be returned to their homeland (Isaiah 11:12)

Actually, the passage does not say this.  If you read it in context, then you see that all that is being said is that God will "assemble" the dispersed of Judah and reclaim the remnant of his people.  Not nearly as explicit as they try to make it sound.

   

* Death will be swallowed up forever (Isaiah 25:

Christians believe that through his suffering, death and resurrection, Christ redeemed man and destroyed death.

   

* There will be no more hunger or illness, and death will cease (Isaiah 25:
    * All of the dead will rise again (Isaiah 26:19)
    * The Jewish people will experience eternal joy and gladness (Isaiah 51:11)
    * Nations will end up recognizing the wrongs they did to Israel (Isaiah 52:13-53:5)
    * The peoples of the world will turn to the Jews for spiritual guidance (Zechariah 8:23)
    * The ruined cities of Israel will be restored (Ezekiel 16:55)
    * Weapons of war will be destroyed (Ezekiel 39:9)
    * The Temple will be rebuilt (Ezekiel 40) resuming many of the suspended mitzvot
    * He will then perfect the entire world to serve God together (Zephaniah 3:9)

All of this is covered mostly in Revelations, which isn't my strongest area... this is all filed under the "yet to come" category with the Second Coming.

* He will be a messenger of peace (Isaiah 52:7)

As Jesus was.

   

* He will give you all the worthy desires of your heart (Psalms 37:4)

Jesus spent alot of time taking about "worthy" desires, as did Paul after him.  Needless to say, these things are possessions, but rather are found through a love of God and one another.

   

* He will take the barren land and make it abundant and fruitful (Isaiah 51:3, Amos 9:13-15, Ezekiel 36:29-30, Isaiah 11:6-9)

The barren land is the land of the Gentiles.  Again... metaphor.  Jesus uses this metaphor is several parables referring to faith.  Bringing faith to people who are not Jews is making the "barren land fruitful.

I am not familiar with the finer points of Christian Doctrine.  I'm merely using these as examples of why Jews do not believe Jesus was the Messiah.