Supersoulty's Christian Theological Debate Thread

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

What OT verses are you reffering that lay down these "requirements"?

Mostly Isaiah.  link

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Thank you for the link.  As you can see, none of these things actually occurred during Jesus's time, or in the 2,000 years since he was crucified.  Especially the part about the Jews living in eternal joy and gladness.  Based on these requirements, I can say that Jesus is not the Messiah based on Jewish texts.

gee, any novice reader of the bible knows that these events are spread across the first and second coming.  in other words, you're not looking too smart right about now.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

The Jewish Messiah was not supposed to have a Second Coming, he is just a man.

please cite book chapter and verse that lead you to this conclusion.

It's no big secret that, prior to the birth of Jesus Christ, Judaism tried to reconcile all the things the Messiah was to supposed to accomplish as written in scripture, and they couldn't get it to fit one individual, so they referred to two Messiah's:  Messiah Son of Joseph (the one that suffers and dies) would appear first and proceed Messiah Son of David (the one that reigns).  They also believed that Messiah Son of David would resurrect Messiah Son of Joseph.

It was a very astonishing and insightful interpretive conclusion by the Jews, for they understood the paradox of the two different roles of the Messiah.  Christianity solves the paradox completely:  one Messiah who first comes to suffer and be rejected by his brother Jews and die, only to be resurrected and returns to conquer and reign.

Oh, one more note, Jesus' earthly father (or step-father, to be more accurate) was named Joseph, the husband of Mary.  So Jesus really was, or so it was thought, the "Son of Joseph". (Luke 3:24,30; John 1:45;6:42)

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

That is incorrect, there is only 1 Messiah

no argument there

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, and he is to be a mortal man, descended from King David.  Isaiah 11:2

Isa 11:2 "And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;"

there is nothing in that verse stating the Messiah would be purely human, and if you read the New Testament, you'll see that Isa 11:2 was fulfilled in Jesus.

Have you actually read the bible?

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

I had a question of my own. In Christian theology, what happens to Jews who do not accept Jesus Christ as our lord and savior and consider him a heretic?

Anyway, as for your question, there are two schools of thought.  The first, is that one must accept Christ as Lord and Savior in this life in order to be saved, which Jesus doesn't actually say.  The second, that Christ told us that he came to heal the sick, not the healthy, the healthy being Jews truly faithful to the old covenant.

[*slaps self*]  [**slaps self, again**]

John 3:14-18 (Jesus is speaking to a Jew, a Pharisees named Nicodemus, a member of the Jewish ruling council) 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one begotten Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's only begotten Son."

Deuteronomy 18:15 (Moses, speaking to Jews) "The LORD your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your own brothers. You must listen to him."

John 3:36 (John the Baptist, speaking to Jews) "Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him."
 
Acts 13:38-40 (Paul, speaking to Jews in a synagogue) 38"Therefore, my brothers, I want you to know that through Jesus the forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you. 39Through him everyone who believes is justified from everything you could not be justified from by the law of Moses. 40Take care that what the prophets have said does not happen to you (quoting Hab 1:5):
 41" 'Look, you scoffers,
      wonder and perish,
   for I am going to do something in your days
      that you would never believe,
      even if someone told you.'"

Acts 2:47 (regarding Jews who were joining the church) "And the Lord added to their number daily those who were being saved."

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

I had a question of my own. In Christian theology, what happens to Jews who do not accept Jesus Christ as our lord and savior and consider him a heretic?

Anyway, as for your question, there are two schools of thought.  The first, is that one must accept Christ as Lord and Savior in this life in order to be saved, which Jesus doesn't actually say.  The second, that Christ told us that he came to heal the sick, not the healthy, the healthy being Jews truly faithful to the old covenant.

[*slaps self*]  [**slaps self, again**]

John 3:14-18 (Jesus is speaking to a Jew, a Pharisees named Nicodemus, a member of the Jewish ruling council) 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one begotten Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's only begotten Son."

Deuteronomy 18:15 (Moses, speaking to Jews) "The LORD your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your own brothers. You must listen to him."

John 3:36 (John the Baptist, speaking to Jews) "Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him."
 
Acts 13:38-40 (Paul, speaking to Jews in a synagogue) 38"Therefore, my brothers, I want you to know that through Jesus the forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you. 39Through him everyone who believes is justified from everything you could not be justified from by the law of Moses. 40Take care that what the prophets have said does not happen to you (quoting Hab 1:5):
 41" 'Look, you scoffers,
      wonder and perish,
   for I am going to do something in your days
      that you would never believe,
      even if someone told you.'"

Acts 2:47 (regarding Jews who were joining the church) "And the Lord added to their number daily those who were being saved."

There are differing degrees of rejection.

I don't understand the implied subjects and objects of your statement - who is doing the rejection and what is being rejected?

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

Do you think I'm going to hell or not? The only people it's harder to get an answer from is Jews. :-P

I think the Passover gives the clearest picture of who is and isn't saved:  During the Passover, the ONLY qualifier was the blood of the lamb.   The death angel did NOT inquire about anything else other than the presence of the blood of the lamb.  Death passed-over whoever had the blood of the lamp on the doorway of their house so that they were saved.  Whoever didn't have the blood of the lamb was killed.

So, the ONLY thing that is needed for salvation is to be covered with the blood of the lamb.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

Do you think I'm going to hell or not? The only people it's harder to get an answer from is Jews. :-P

I think the Passover gives the clearest picture of who is and isn't saved:  During the Passover, the ONLY qualifier was the blood of the lamb.   The death angel did NOT inquire about anything else other than the presence of the blood of the lamb.  Death passed-over whoever had the blood of the lamp on the doorway of their house so that they were saved.  Whoever didn't have the blood of the lamb was killed.

So, the ONLY thing that is needed for salvation is to be covered with the blood of the lamb.

Is the lamb Jesus?

yes, Jesus is referred to in the New Testament as the fulfillment of the Passover Lamb.

http://www.biblegateway.com/keyword/?search=lamb&version1=31&searchtype=all&bookset=2

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Who is covered by the blood of the lamb?

The very same as those who had their doorposts covered with the blood during the Passover:  those who simply believed what they heard and obeyed.

1John 1:7 "If we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin."

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Do I have to willingly accept the blood upon myself?

Not upon your physical self, for it is applied to you spiritually by Jesus himself, for he is the High Priest who sprinkles with blood, who entered into the true tabernacle that is in Heaven.  The earthly tabernacle of the Israelites was simply a copy of the true tabernacle in Heaven.

Exo 25:9 “Make this tabernacle and all its furnishings exactly like the pattern I will show you.”

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Do you think I am going to hell for not accepting JAMLAS (Jesus as my Lord and Savior)?

If you die in that state, then yes.  But you have not stumbled so as to fall beyond recovery, so if you do not persist in unbelief, then you can surely be saved.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

So the answer is yes, those who do not accept JAMLAS are going to hell. Can't wait. I hear there is wi-fi down there.

Oh, well...whatever floats your boat