Supersoulty's Christian Theological Debate Thread

[Kaine for Senate '18]

My major problem with Christian doctrine is the idea that they use the Hebrew Bible to justify Jesus as the Messiah.  If you look at the specific requirements for a Jewish Messiah, which is what people claimed Jesus was, he did not fulfill any of those requirements.  He didn't overthrow the Romans, he didn't rebuild the Temple, and he didn't bring peace to the world.

Also, the common passge in Isaiah about a "virgin" conceiving is not accurate.  The Hebrew says that the child shall be born in wedlock.  It doesn't have to be a virgin, just an unmarried women.

[Kaine for Senate '18]

What OT verses are you reffering that lay down these "requirements"?

Mostly Isaiah.  link

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Thank you for the link.  As you can see, none of these things actually occurred during Jesus's time, or in the 2,000 years since he was crucified.  Especially the part about the Jews living in eternal joy and gladness.  Based on these requirements, I can say that Jesus is not the Messiah based on Jewish texts.

[Kaine for Senate '18]

Is it a sin to look at porn/masturbate?

In the Hebrew Bible, G-d strikes down someone for masturbating, so I would guess yes.  I don't think pornography is by itself a sin, but if you masturbate, then yes, it is a sin.

[Kaine for Senate '18]

Also, did they breed with us? I have also heard that, and while that may be "out there" I wonder if their's any evidence that they did.

Short answer - no.

Not in the Canon, but if you look in the Book of Enoch, I'm pretty sure it is mentioned.  Or maybe it was Jubilee.  One of those two books.

[Kaine for Senate '18]

What OT verses are you reffering that lay down these "requirements"?

Mostly Isaiah.  link

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Thank you for the link.  As you can see, none of these things actually occurred during Jesus's time, or in the 2,000 years since he was crucified.  Especially the part about the Jews living in eternal joy and gladness.  Based on these requirements, I can say that Jesus is not the Messiah based on Jewish texts.

gee, any novice reader of the bible knows that these events are spread across the first and second coming.  in other words, you're not looking too smart right about now.

The Jewish Messiah was not supposed to have a Second Coming, he is just a man.

[Kaine for Senate '18]

Could anyone explain to me what the Nephilim are? I've heard they were fallen angels, but no one seems to be sure on this. Also, did they breed with us? I have also heard that, and while that may be "out there" I wonder if their's any evidence that they did.

The Nephilim, to the best of my memory, are not mentioned in the Hebrew Bible.  Maybe I'm wrong, but I've only seen them in the Apocrypha.

[Kaine for Senate '18]

The Jewish Messiah was not supposed to have a Second Coming, he is just a man.

please cite book chapter and verse that lead you to this conclusion.

It's no big secret that, prior to the birth of Jesus Christ, Judaism tried to reconcile all the things the Messiah was to supposed to accomplish as written in scripture, and they couldn't get it to fit one individual, so they referred to two Messiah's:  Messiah Son of Joseph (the one that suffers and dies) would appear first and proceed Messiah Son of David (the one that reigns).  They also believed that Messiah Son of David would resurrect Messiah Son of Joseph.

That is incorrect, there is only 1 Messiah, and he is to be a mortal man, descended from King David.  Isaiah 11:2

[Kaine for Senate '18]

Read these specific requirements, and you'll notice Jesus did not fulfill any of them http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Messiah#Textual_requirements

[Kaine for Senate '18]

Read these specific requirements, and you'll notice Jesus did not fulfill any of them http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Messiah#Textual_requirements

Do you really have any knowledge of Christian theology?  It's not an attack, its a serious question, because alot of these points are answered by very basic points of Christian teaching.

   

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Metaphorical... for a Catholic standpoint, this would be the establishment of the Church structure.  What is merely being said here is that there will once again be elders capable of making decisions for the faithful.  In this case, the Bishops, who are the direct successors of the Twelve, represent the body of the Council.  The Sanhedrin were ruled over by the Prime Minister (or Chief Steward) of the House of David and later the High Priest... the man that Catholics now call the "Pope".

This is a point that is lost on even most Jews today, but Catholics didn't "make up" the way the our Bishops are dressed.  The design for their outfits was taken largely from the design of those worn by the Sanhedrin members.  If you ever watch Raiders of the Lost Ark the guy who opens the Ark isn't wearing a Catholic Bishop's outfit.  If you look real closely, you will see there are Jewish characters on the robes and headdress.  This is accurate.

   

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Jesus "became King" when he died on the cross and word of his teachings spread.  In the end, people did, indeed, bow before him.

   

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A prophesy yet to be fulfilled.

   

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Read the beginning of the Book of Matthew.

   

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Most Christians believe that Jesus was fully man and fully God.  In fact, two of the primary heresies wiped out in the early Church were Monotheisms (the belief that Jesus only had one nature, and that was divine) and Arianism (the belief that Jesus was not God, but rather "the greatest of all creatures" in God's order).  Both of which opposed the fundamental tenets of Nicaea.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicene_Creed

If you actually want to understand Christian belief then the Creed is a good place to start.

It is clear by the scriptures that he was an observant Jew.

   

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Again, Christians believe that no evil can stand before the name and Word of Christ, but as an observant Jew, I wouldn't expect you to believe that.

   

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Probably fair to say that the knowledge of the one God is at least far more extensive than it was in Jewish times, and indeed, Jesus claims followers in all nations.

   

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Actually, the passage does not say this.  If you read it in context, then you see that all that is being said is that God will "assemble" the dispersed of Judah and reclaim the remnant of his people.  Not nearly as explicit as they try to make it sound.

   

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Christians believe that through his suffering, death and resurrection, Christ redeemed man and destroyed death.

   

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All of this is covered mostly in Revelations, which isn't my strongest area... this is all filed under the "yet to come" category with the Second Coming.

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As Jesus was.

   

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Jesus spent alot of time taking about "worthy" desires, as did Paul after him.  Needless to say, these things are possessions, but rather are found through a love of God and one another.

   

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The barren land is the land of the Gentiles.  Again... metaphor.  Jesus uses this metaphor is several parables referring to faith.  Bringing faith to people who are not Jews is making the "barren land fruitful.

I am not familiar with the finer points of Christian Doctrine.  I'm merely using these as examples of why Jews do not believe Jesus was the Messiah.

[Kaine for Senate '18]

Let's bump this thread.

[Kaine for Senate '18]

Let's bump this thread.

[Kaine for Senate '18]

Let's bump this thread.

Seriously, this could be a good thread.