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Author Topic: How much of the Hebrew Bible can be taken as fact?  (Read 8557 times)
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« on: January 27, 2008, 03:27:59 pm »
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Certainly the entire book of Genesis is allegorical, although certain parts (Joseph going into Egypt) can be taken as actually happening.  I think there is good evidence for the Exodus, and Leviticus and Numbers are mostly laws, so there's no dispute on that count.  Deuteronomy is mostly Moses's farewell address, so there no reason to dispute that book either.  Most of the Prophets can be taken as true, likewise with Kings and Chronicles.  Outside of the Torah, the only parts that are untrue are contained in sections of books (Samson, various miracles, etc.)  What do you think?
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« Reply #1 on: January 27, 2008, 03:32:43 pm »
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I think that the Torah is a corrupted version of the word of Allah, so the only parts that can be taken as fact are those that are expressly corroborated in the Qur’ān, which is about a quarter based on my completely random guess.
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« Reply #2 on: January 27, 2008, 03:33:38 pm »
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I think that the Torah is a corrupted version of the word of Allah, so the only parts that can be taken as fact are those that are expressly corroborated in the Qur’ān, which is about a quarter based on my completely random guess.

How is the Torah a corrupted version, when it came first, by about 1,000-1,500 years?
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« Reply #3 on: January 27, 2008, 03:38:34 pm »
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I think that the Torah is a corrupted version of the word of Allah, so the only parts that can be taken as fact are those that are expressly corroborated in the Qur’ān, which is about a quarter based on my completely random guess.

How is the Torah a corrupted version, when it came first, by about 1,000-1,500 years?

It was gradually changed from the word of Allah as revealed to Moses.
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« Reply #4 on: January 27, 2008, 03:39:59 pm »
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I think that the Torah is a corrupted version of the word of Allah, so the only parts that can be taken as fact are those that are expressly corroborated in the Qur’ān, which is about a quarter based on my completely random guess.

How is the Torah a corrupted version, when it came first, by about 1,000-1,500 years?

It was gradually changed from the word of Allah as revealed to Moses.

Okay, now I get it.
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« Reply #5 on: January 27, 2008, 03:41:22 pm »
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I think that the Torah is a corrupted version of the word of Allah, so the only parts that can be taken as fact are those that are expressly corroborated in the Qur’ān, which is about a quarter based on my completely random guess.

How is the Torah a corrupted version, when it came first, by about 1,000-1,500 years?

It was gradually changed from the word of Allah as revealed to Moses.

Okay, now I get it.

Same goes for the Gospel of Jesus, while the New Testament is not regarded as having any sort of divine basis.
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« Reply #6 on: January 27, 2008, 03:42:34 pm »
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How much of the Koran is original material?  By that, I mean it isn't a retelling of stuff found in the Hebrew Bible and Christian Bible?
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« Reply #7 on: January 27, 2008, 03:44:50 pm »
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I think that the Torah is a corrupted version of the word of Allah, so the only parts that can be taken as fact are those that are expressly corroborated in the Qur’ān, which is about a quarter based on my completely random guess.

So, what is your faith's view on the people of the book?

Do we end up in hell (I can't remember what its called in Islam, something J-- but too close spelling wise to heaven for me to try and spell)? Temporary punishment? Permanent?  You can answer in another thread if you'd like

</hijack>
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« Reply #8 on: January 27, 2008, 03:45:29 pm »
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I think that the Torah is a corrupted version of the word of Allah, so the only parts that can be taken as fact are those that are expressly corroborated in the Qur’ān, which is about a quarter based on my completely random guess.

So, what is your faith's view on the people of the book?

Do we end up in hell (I can't remember what its called in Islam, something J-- but too close spelling wise to heaven for me to try and spell)? Temporary punishment? Permanent?  You can answer in another thread if you'd like

</hijack>

Bullmoose-are you Jewish?
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« Reply #9 on: January 27, 2008, 03:47:08 pm »
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I think that the Torah is a corrupted version of the word of Allah, so the only parts that can be taken as fact are those that are expressly corroborated in the Qur’ān, which is about a quarter based on my completely random guess.

So, what is your faith's view on the people of the book?

Do we end up in hell (I can't remember what its called in Islam, something J-- but too close spelling wise to heaven for me to try and spell)? Temporary punishment? Permanent?  You can answer in another thread if you'd like

</hijack>

Bullmoose-are you Jewish?

No, protestant...
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« Reply #10 on: January 27, 2008, 03:53:10 pm »
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Why do you ask?
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« Reply #11 on: January 27, 2008, 03:56:42 pm »
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You said "we" when referring to the People of the Book, who are Jews.
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« Reply #12 on: January 27, 2008, 03:58:41 pm »
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You said "we" when referring to the People of the Book, who are Jews.

If I recall correctly (and I may not since I am not a Muslim) but islam considers both christians and jews to be the people of the book...ie those using the incomplete revelations of Allah
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« Reply #13 on: January 27, 2008, 03:59:39 pm »
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Perhaps
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« Reply #14 on: January 27, 2008, 04:05:50 pm »
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Perhaps

I guess i'll pose a question for you...and its something I can't get a clear uniform answer from my jewish friends...the answers are so different I wonder if they all share the same faith...

But is there a heaven and a hell in judaism? if so...what exactly are they like?
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« Reply #15 on: January 27, 2008, 04:11:34 pm »
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Judaism belives that everyone's soul will spend eternity with God, so no, there is no Heaven and Hell per se, because everyone spends eternity in a heaven like place.
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« Reply #16 on: January 27, 2008, 04:17:17 pm »
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Judaism belives that everyone's soul will spend eternity with God, so no, there is no Heaven and Hell per se, because everyone spends eternity in a heaven like place.

I've heard this explanation before...i guess I don't understand it...why would He have a chosen people...and why wouldHe allow vile souls (i'm not talking about debatable ones, I'm talking about the most vile people in human history) to have the same outcome?
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« Reply #17 on: January 27, 2008, 05:08:05 pm »
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Here's an answer to all your questions (I hope).

How much of the Koran is original material?  By that, I mean it isn't a retelling of stuff found in the Hebrew Bible and Christian Bible?

I think I've explained that the Torah and Gospel are the Word of God, but corrupted in places. So, the uncorrupted Word would be similar.

I think that the Torah is a corrupted version of the word of Allah, so the only parts that can be taken as fact are those that are expressly corroborated in the Qur’ān, which is about a quarter based on my completely random guess.

So, what is your faith's view on the people of the book?

Do we end up in hell (I can't remember what its called in Islam, something J-- but too close spelling wise to heaven for me to try and spell)? Temporary punishment? Permanent?  You can answer in another thread if you'd like

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I will, thank you.
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« Reply #18 on: January 27, 2008, 09:28:24 pm »
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All of the Bible, except for some of the Letters of Paul.
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« Reply #19 on: January 27, 2008, 10:55:34 pm »
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Judaism belives that everyone's soul will spend eternity with God, so no, there is no Heaven and Hell per se, because everyone spends eternity in a heaven like place.

I've heard this explanation before...i guess I don't understand it...why would He have a chosen people...and why wouldHe allow vile souls (i'm not talking about debatable ones, I'm talking about the most vile people in human history) to have the same outcome?

You're asking for a detailed religion to make logical sense? I think you're asking a bit too much. Wink
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« Reply #20 on: January 28, 2008, 05:40:04 am »
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Certainly the entire book of Genesis is allegorical

then why does the rest of scripture treat Genesis as the historical record?  The simple fact is that scripture doesn't treat the account Genesis any differently than it does any other historical book of the bible.  In fact, I could easily argue that Genesis is treaty as the blueprint for the rest of the bible.

Can the events in Genesis be taken allegorically?  Absolutely.  For example, a lot of the events of Joseph's life establish a pattern that the Messiah would later follow.  But that doesn't make the events of Joseph's life any less real.

Scripture simply treats the events recorded in prior scripture as BOTH literal and figurative.

---

, although certain parts (Joseph going into Egypt) can be taken as actually happening.

Well, how could Joseph be real but not his father (Jacob), his grandfather (Issac), or his great-grandfather (Abraham)?

---

What do you think?

In all kindness, I don't think you have thought this through.
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« Reply #21 on: January 28, 2008, 09:51:16 am »
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although certain parts (Joseph going into Egypt) can be taken as actually happening.

Well, how could Joseph be real but not his father (Jacob), his grandfather (Issac), or his great-grandfather (Abraham)?

Jacob, Isaac, and Abraham are quite real.  They did not live to the age as given in Genesis, but there certainly existed a man who started Judaism, and he did have a son, and a grandson, and so on and so forth.
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« Reply #22 on: January 28, 2008, 12:20:11 pm »
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Jacob, Isaac, and Abraham are quite real.  They did not live to the age as given in Genesis,

you were around to witness the length of their lifespans?  wow, you must be really old
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I looked over Jordan, and what did I see?
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A band of angels coming after me,
Coming for to carry me home.

Swing low, sweet chariot,
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« Reply #23 on: January 28, 2008, 12:26:36 pm »
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Jacob, Isaac, and Abraham are quite real.  They did not live to the age as given in Genesis,

you were around to witness the length of their lifespans?  wow, you must be really old

Abraham did not live to be 175, Isaac to 137, and Jacob at 147.
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« Reply #24 on: January 28, 2008, 12:31:46 pm »
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Jacob, Isaac, and Abraham are quite real.  They did not live to the age as given in Genesis,

you were around to witness the length of their lifespans?  wow, you must be really old

Abraham did not live to be 175, Isaac to 137, and Jacob at 147.

Our years? Probably...then again, you're technically speculating (extrapolating backwards from a modern trend)
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