Is the author of Revelation the same as the Gospel and Epistles of John?
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  Is the author of Revelation the same as the Gospel and Epistles of John?
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Question: Is the author of Revelation the same as the Gospel and Epistles of John?
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No
 
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Author Topic: Is the author of Revelation the same as the Gospel and Epistles of John?  (Read 4412 times)
they don't love you like i love you
BRTD
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« on: February 19, 2015, 11:22:50 PM »

All evidence points to no.

And this is one case where Bushie can't just do his head in the same "The Bible says it, so it's true and nothing else matters" cop out routine like he does on creationism and so many other topics, because nowhere in the Bible is this explicitly stated.
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DC Al Fine
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« Reply #1 on: February 20, 2015, 05:10:31 PM »


I'm not familiar with this issue. Could you provide a brief walkthrough of the evidence?
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The Mikado
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« Reply #2 on: February 20, 2015, 05:48:21 PM »


I'm not familiar with this issue. Could you provide a brief walkthrough of the evidence?

This is actually one of the oldest questions raised about Biblical authorship and has been debated since Antiquity. Itboils down to the author of Revelation never claiming to be the same author as the author of the Gospel, but claiming that his name was John. The early Church decided that "John" the Evangelist and the "John" of Revelation must be the same John, but there have been naysayers ever since.

Today, textual analysis has shown a very different vocabulary between the two documents.

It's a bit of a big deal because if Revelation was just written by some guy named John and not THE John it undermines its credibility somewhat.
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Oswald Acted Alone, You Kook
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« Reply #3 on: February 20, 2015, 07:55:17 PM »

Yes, of course. I would have done a paper on this, but my New Testament class was taught by a different professor.
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Zioneer
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« Reply #4 on: February 20, 2015, 10:31:28 PM »

Yes, because it's part of my church's beliefs, and it's not an issue I care enough about to dispute.
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True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)
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« Reply #5 on: February 20, 2015, 10:37:16 PM »

If they are the same person, the textual analysis would indicate that likely Revelation was written first and far earlier than generally thought.
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MyRescueKittehRocks
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« Reply #6 on: February 24, 2015, 09:15:45 PM »

The Apostle John wrote all of them. Simple as that.
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True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)
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« Reply #7 on: February 24, 2015, 09:59:24 PM »

The Apostle John wrote all of them. Simple as that.
Why is it simple?  As has been pointed out, the authorship question stretches back to antiquity.  To a large degree the question was originally decided not so much on the evidence, but because it was felt that it had a bearing on whether Revelation should be in the canon.
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Starbucks Union Thug HokeyPuck
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« Reply #8 on: February 24, 2015, 11:20:57 PM »

Other: no one could possibly know this and it doesn't matter.
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politicus
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« Reply #9 on: February 24, 2015, 11:30:27 PM »

Other: no one could possibly know this and it doesn't matter.

Of course it matters, for the reasons Mikado pointed out. The fact that you do not care doesn't change that.

You can never know for sure, but linguistic analysis has made it clear that the author of these texts are almost certainly not identical. "Almost certainly" is often all you got in historical research, that doesn't invalidate it.
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TJ in Oregon
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« Reply #10 on: February 27, 2015, 11:10:58 PM »

Other: no one could possibly know this and it doesn't matter.

Of course it matters, for the reasons Mikado pointed out. The fact that you do not care doesn't change that.

You can never know for sure, but linguistic analysis has made it clear that the author of these texts are almost certainly not identical. "Almost certainly" is often all you got in historical research, that doesn't invalidate it.

Why does it really matter whether Revelation was actually written by John the Evangelist or one of his early followers who penned it in his name? The point of Scripture isn't the author but the truths it contains. In the case of Revelation, I can't see the point in putting too much in it beyond accepting that a guy named John had a bunch of visions that no one knows what they mean.
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anvi
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« Reply #11 on: February 28, 2015, 06:01:26 PM »

I don't know.  I used to be very interested in this topic, and the materials I read a long time ago suggested that it's fairly doubtful they were the same author.  The Evangelist, these scholars argued, wrote in philosophical and highly polished Greek of a pretty high literary quality, while the author of Revelation wrote in fairly flat prose and was even prone to making grammatical mistakes.  Maybe, these scholars suggested, if they were the same author, some of it could be explained by referencing the fact that the John of Revelation wrote while incarcerated while the John of the Gospel wrote in more secure circumstances.  However, the texts are written in very different literary genres too, and it was unlikely that a first or second century author who wrote apocalyptic texts--a widespread style at the time--would also write philosophical works that looked like they'd been influenced by Gnostics, or at least Platonists.  But there does seem to have been a fairly long debate in the early church about whether Revelation should even be included in the Christian scriptures, while the Gospel of John was the subject of far less suspicion.  So, the stuff I read ages ago argued in the negative.  But I don't know.
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« Reply #12 on: March 01, 2015, 05:17:15 PM »

I don't get why it's so important for conservative Christians to insist that Paul wrote all 13 letters, or that Peter wrote the Petrine epistles, or that John wrote all of the Johannine literature.  what's really at stake?
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True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)
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« Reply #13 on: March 01, 2015, 08:21:34 PM »

I don't get why it's so important for conservative Christians to insist that Paul wrote all 13 letters, or that Peter wrote the Petrine epistles, or that John wrote all of the Johannine literature.  what's really at stake?
  If the author is just some guy rather than one of the people who actually knew Jesus, then by the standard used to define the canon, they shouldn't be in the Bible.  1 and 2 Clement, Barnabas, the Didache, and other early works were excluded from the canon not because of their theology or a lack of popularity but because they lacked a direct connection to Christ.
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The Mikado
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« Reply #14 on: March 02, 2015, 08:27:47 PM »

I don't get why it's so important for conservative Christians to insist that Paul wrote all 13 letters, or that Peter wrote the Petrine epistles, or that John wrote all of the Johannine literature.  what's really at stake?
  If the author is just some guy rather than one of the people who actually knew Jesus, then by the standard used to define the canon, they shouldn't be in the Bible.  1 and 2 Clement, Barnabas, the Didache, and other early works were excluded from the canon not because of their theology or a lack of popularity but because they lacked a direct connection to Christ.

But even going by traditional attribution of the books without bringing higher criticism into this, the traditional St. Luke (of Luke/Acts) never met Jesus, either. He was Paul's secretary.
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politicus
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« Reply #15 on: March 02, 2015, 11:20:32 PM »

Other: no one could possibly know this and it doesn't matter.

Of course it matters, for the reasons Mikado pointed out. The fact that you do not care doesn't change that.

You can never know for sure, but linguistic analysis has made it clear that the author of these texts are almost certainly not identical. "Almost certainly" is often all you got in historical research, that doesn't invalidate it.

Why does it really matter whether Revelation was actually written by John the Evangelist or one of his early followers who penned it in his name? The point of Scripture isn't the author but the truths it contains.

You do not know whether it was penned "in his name" or the author just happened to have the same name. If it is just written by an unknown guy named John it has no more status than apocryphal texts.
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True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)
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« Reply #16 on: March 03, 2015, 05:32:14 AM »

I don't get why it's so important for conservative Christians to insist that Paul wrote all 13 letters, or that Peter wrote the Petrine epistles, or that John wrote all of the Johannine literature.  what's really at stake?
  If the author is just some guy rather than one of the people who actually knew Jesus, then by the standard used to define the canon, they shouldn't be in the Bible.  1 and 2 Clement, Barnabas, the Didache, and other early works were excluded from the canon not because of their theology or a lack of popularity but because they lacked a direct connection to Christ.

But even going by traditional attribution of the books without bringing higher criticism into this, the traditional St. Luke (of Luke/Acts) never met Jesus, either. He was Paul's secretary.

Actually, according to tradition Luke was one of the Seventy Disciples sent out by Jesus.
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Хahar 🤔
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« Reply #17 on: April 01, 2015, 12:47:20 PM »

There's not even any clear evidence that the Gospel of John and the Johannine epistles were written by the same man, is there?
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Oldiesfreak1854
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« Reply #18 on: May 05, 2015, 03:02:58 PM »

Yes (normal).
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True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)
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« Reply #19 on: May 05, 2015, 11:28:48 PM »
« Edited: May 05, 2015, 11:44:05 PM by True Federalist »

There's not even any clear evidence that the Gospel of John and the Johannine epistles were written by the same man, is there?

Critical scholarship based on textual analysis is divided.

A majority think the gospel and the epistles were products of a Johannine school centered on the Apostle John, with John himself being the editor of the gospel thus making him the author in the same sense that Cranmer could be viewed as the author of The Book of Common Prayer.

Many think John wrote the the first epistle himself, with doubts coming mainly from those who think its content points to a date after John's death. I can see it being a work written at the very end of his life when John was likely the last Apostle still living and expected that Jesus would soon come before he could die.

The other two letters are so inconsequential, its hard to know who wrote them or when, tho most think those two share common authorship based on textual analysis.  I think it likely given their content and that they were preserved is that what happened was John told his secretary to write a brief note telling the recipient that John planned to come visit them and why.  So in that sense they're letters of John the Apostle.

It's not like the Apocalypse of John, where the style is so different from the remainder of the Johannine literature that few critical scholars think it shares authorship with the rest of the Johannine corpus, and I share those doubts.  For that matter, I have serious doubts that the Apocalypse of John the Servant should even be part of the canon, but I haven't come to a conclusion.

Incidentally, as long as we're talking about Revelation, let me mention one idea I've had for who the twenty four elders are in the book.  Given the highly symbolic language of apocalyptic language in general, it's not even certain that they represent people. I think a good case can be made for them representing the twenty-four books of the Jewish cannon and thus symbolizing the common assertion that everything in the Old Testament points to Jesus if you only know how to read it. (Some books considered separate books in Christian labeling are part of one book in the Jewish canon, with the most extreme example being that the twelve Minor prophets are in Judaism one book instead of twelve.)
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True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)
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« Reply #20 on: May 06, 2015, 01:48:32 PM »

Coincidentally, in my morning Bible study, I came across a passage that makes clear to me that the author of the Gospel of John and the Apocalypse of John cannot possibly be the same John. I can't see how the same man could possibly pen both John 15:15 and Revelation 1:1.

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Not just in quoted passage, the author of Revelation uses the Greek word δοῦλος (doulos) in a fashion unlike the other Johannine works, but consistent with the synoptic gospels and the Pauline corpus.
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Oldiesfreak1854
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« Reply #21 on: June 01, 2015, 07:42:31 PM »

What evidence?  There seems to be near-universal agreement among the Christians I know that it was.
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Famous Mortimer
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« Reply #22 on: July 19, 2015, 12:20:19 PM »

What evidence?  There seems to be near-universal agreement among the Christians I know that it was.

People believing something is not evidence.

Regardless, there is not near-universal agreement on the subject. I suppose MAYBE among Biblical literalists, there is more of a consensus but I actually doubt even that is true. It's not something that's explicitly stated anywhere in scripture so it's not a required belief, thus in the absence of any reason to believe the two are the same (besides sharing a common first name) I don't see why people would.
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