Judaism

[Countess Anya of the North Parish]

basically. If the mom is Orthodox the child will have been baptised since she or she was one.

We don't have baptism.

huh I don't understand your statment.

Jews don't practice baptism.  They practice a water cleansing ritual, mivkah, but it's not equivalent.  More similar is the hand-washing practices, which in the Bible used the same word as "baptism."  They're still not the same thing, though.

thank you I couldn't quit get it off the tip of my tongue.

[Grad Students are the Worst]

basically. If the mom is Orthodox the child will have been baptised since she or she was one.

We don't have baptism.

huh I don't understand your statment.

Jews don't practice baptism.  They practice a water cleansing ritual, mivkah, but it's not equivalent.  More similar is the hand-washing practices, which in the Bible used the same word as "baptism."  They're still not the same thing, though.

thank you I couldn't quit get it off the tip of my tongue.

o...k...

[Χahar]

Circumcision would be an equivalent, no? Or at least, it would've. It's done too early for that purpose these days.

[The Mikado]

Circumcision would be an equivalent, no? Or at least, it would've. It's done too early for that purpose these days.

thank you I couldn't quit get it off the tip of my tongue.

The proximity of these two comments...   

And on that note, good night, ladies and gentlemen!

[Χahar]

LOL.

[Grad Students are the Worst]

Circumcision would be an equivalent, no? Or at least, it would've. It's done too early for that purpose these days.

Eh, sort of.

Circumcision isn't a purification ritual; it's a covenant.  There's an inherent element of purification ritual to a covenant, being that it brings one into the religious fold.  But baptism is symbolic of washing away; circumcision is meant as a mark, a theological contract/cattle brand of sorts.

The only similarity is in infant baptism, in that both are both consent-free inductions into religious membership done on the very young.  You could argue that both pertain to the covenant with God, but really what ritual doesn't?  Their meaning is different, and they're not equivalent.  Besides, baptism applies to both sexes, so it can't really be a direct replacement.

[Senator Ben]

Just something I was wondering: are there any Orthodox or Conservative Jews on the forum?  I'm Reform, and I'm pretty sure the other Jews are as well.

[memphis]

Just something I was wondering: are there any Orthodox or Conservative Jews on the forum?  I'm Reform, and I'm pretty sure the other Jews are as well.

Raised Conservative. Not a "religious" though

[Ronnie]

Just something I was wondering: are there any Orthodox or Conservative Jews on the forum?  I'm Reform, and I'm pretty sure the other Jews are as well.

I'm a conservative Jew.

To be precise, I would be something of a "Reconservadox".  I drive on Shabbat, keep strict Kosher, go to a Reform temple, and usually go to temple on Shabbat and high holy days.

[Senator Ben]

I'm a conservative Jew.

To be precise, I would be something of a "Reconservadox".  I drive on Shabbat, keep strict Kosher, go to a Reform temple, and usually go to temple on Shabbat and high holy days.

That is an interesting mix.  I'm something like that too; I place more emphasis on Halakha than Reform Jews; I believe in a Messiah, which Reform Jews don't; but I don't keep Kosher, I don't go to temple as often as I'd like, and other things.

[RosettaStoned]

Whats a Bris like?

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

Well, I was 8 days old (as are most Jews upon a Bris) so dunno. I can tell you the perspective of someone watching a bris though. It's a pretty big event. A lot of ceremony, including the bringing in of the child by the godparents, blessings by the rabbi, the child gets some grape juice/wine. The circumcision itself is barely visible because of all the relatives surrounding the kid. The baby cries (duh!) and everyone celebrates.

And then we eat.

reminds me of:

Phil 3:4 If anyone else thinks he has reasons to put confidence in the flesh, I have more: 5 circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; in regard to the law, a Pharisee; 6as for zeal, persecuting the church; as for legalistic righteousness, faultless.

 7But whatever was to my profit I now consider loss for the sake of Christ. 8What is more, I consider everything a loss compared to the surpassing greatness of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them rubbish, that I may gain Christ 9and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ—the righteousness that comes from God and is by faith. 10I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of sharing in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11and so, somehow, to attain to the resurrection from the dead.

Pressing on Toward the Goal
 12Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. 13Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, 14I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.

[RosettaStoned]

Hypothetically, if a man is already circumcized and converts to Judaism, what happens then?

[RosettaStoned]

In conversion a Bris is completely different. Not the same kind of ceremony etc.

First a brief background. In order to convert, there must be an acceptance of the Jewish laws, a ritual cleansing (in the mikvah aka ritual bath), and a circumcision/blood-letting. If a man converts and is already circumcised, there must be some type of small drawing of blood in that area. It does not need to be extremely painful or whatnot, but there needs to be an amount of blood.

Ouch!

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

First a brief background. In order to convert, there must be an acceptance of the Jewish laws

1) repentance (to turn towards obedience to the word of God)

---

, a ritual cleansing (in the mikvah aka ritual bath)

2) baptism

---

, and a circumcision/blood-letting.

3) having the blood of Christ applied to your heart by the receiving of the Holy Spirit

---

Acts 2:36"Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ."

 37When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, "Brothers, what shall we do?"

 38Peter replied, "1) Repent and be 2) baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. 3) And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call."

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

Only thing is that Judaism came first...

Unless your point is that Jesus and the apostles were influenced by Judaism, which is likely because Jesus was a Jew and doubtlessly learned all of these ideas. While some may not have appealed to him, others are likely to have stuck.

have you been on Pluto the last 2000 years?  you seem totally unaware of the claims of Christianity.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

Only thing is that Judaism came first...

Unless your point is that Jesus and the apostles were influenced by Judaism, which is likely because Jesus was a Jew and doubtlessly learned all of these ideas. While some may not have appealed to him, others are likely to have stuck.

have you been on Pluto the last 2000 years?  you seem totally unaware of the claims of Christianity.

Did Christianity come first? You'll have to explain.

Only thing is that Judaism came first...

i've never heard of a Christian teaching stating that the old testament was NOT written prior to the new testament

---

Unless your point is that Jesus and the apostles were influenced by Judaism, which is likely because Jesus was a Jew and doubtlessly learned all of these ideas. While some may not have appealed to him, others are likely to have stuck.

Christianity claims to be the fulfillment of the Old Testament, so OBVIOUSLY it is influenced and based upon the Old Testament. 

In fact, every New Testament doctrine I have read has its basis in the Old Testament.  So much so, I could use the Old Testament exclusively to preach Christianity, which is exactly what the Apostles did.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

I was aware of all that. That's why I was curious why you were quoting the New Testament above. Was it to show that Judaism influenced Christianity? Or was there another point?

it was to show how Christianity fulfilled spiritually what the physical circumcision had foreshadowed.

[Grad Students are the Worst]

I was aware of all that. That's why I was curious why you were quoting the New Testament above. Was it to show that Judaism influenced Christianity? Or was there another point?

it was to show how Christianity fulfilled spiritually what the physical circumcision had foreshadowed.

Oh, I thought we were discussing Judaism though, not how Christianity fulfills the commandments of Judaism. That could be a whole different thread.

If it's jmfcst, assume that any religious conversation is a lot more about Christianity than whatever is actually being discussed.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

I was aware of all that. That's why I was curious why you were quoting the New Testament above. Was it to show that Judaism influenced Christianity? Or was there another point?

it was to show how Christianity fulfilled spiritually what the physical circumcision had foreshadowed.

Oh, I thought we were discussing Judaism though, not how Christianity fulfills the commandments of Judaism. That could be a whole different thread.

If it's jmfcst, assume that any religious conversation is a lot more about Christianity than whatever is actually being discussed.

For you, that was a decent attempt at humor.  It might actually have been funny...

...except for the fact ALL the scriptural based portions of Judaism are about nothing but Christ.

John 5:39 "You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me"

[Grad Students are the Worst]

I was aware of all that. That's why I was curious why you were quoting the New Testament above. Was it to show that Judaism influenced Christianity? Or was there another point?

it was to show how Christianity fulfilled spiritually what the physical circumcision had foreshadowed.

Oh, I thought we were discussing Judaism though, not how Christianity fulfills the commandments of Judaism. That could be a whole different thread.

If it's jmfcst, assume that any religious conversation is a lot more about Christianity than whatever is actually being discussed.

For you, that was a decent attempt at humor.  It might actually have been funny...

...except for the fact ALL the scriptural based portions of Judaism are about nothing but Christ.

John 5:39 "You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me"

You're right!  Biblical scripture is much funnier.  Sincerest apologies.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

I was aware of all that. That's why I was curious why you were quoting the New Testament above. Was it to show that Judaism influenced Christianity? Or was there another point?

it was to show how Christianity fulfilled spiritually what the physical circumcision had foreshadowed.

Oh, I thought we were discussing Judaism though, not how Christianity fulfills the commandments of Judaism. That could be a whole different thread.

If it's jmfcst, assume that any religious conversation is a lot more about Christianity than whatever is actually being discussed.

For you, that was a decent attempt at humor.  It might actually have been funny...

...except for the fact ALL the scriptural based portions of Judaism are about nothing but Christ.

John 5:39 "You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me"

You're right!  Biblical scripture is much funnier.  Sincerest apologies.

relax, I wasn't saying you weren't funny, just that your humor isn't

[Grad Students are the Worst]

I was aware of all that. That's why I was curious why you were quoting the New Testament above. Was it to show that Judaism influenced Christianity? Or was there another point?

it was to show how Christianity fulfilled spiritually what the physical circumcision had foreshadowed.

Oh, I thought we were discussing Judaism though, not how Christianity fulfills the commandments of Judaism. That could be a whole different thread.

If it's jmfcst, assume that any religious conversation is a lot more about Christianity than whatever is actually being discussed.

For you, that was a decent attempt at humor.  It might actually have been funny...

...except for the fact ALL the scriptural based portions of Judaism are about nothing but Christ.

John 5:39 "You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me"

You're right!  Biblical scripture is much funnier.  Sincerest apologies.

relax, I wasn't saying you weren't funny, just that your humor isn't

You know, we can go on with this repartee forever, but at the end you're still an old guy.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

You know, we can go on with this repartee forever, but at the end you're still an old guy.

old?  ok, but I'm still cooler and better looking...and, I might add, the chicks dig me. 

[The Mikado]

I was aware of all that. That's why I was curious why you were quoting the New Testament above. Was it to show that Judaism influenced Christianity? Or was there another point?

it was to show how Christianity fulfilled spiritually what the physical circumcision had foreshadowed.

Oh, I thought we were discussing Judaism though, not how Christianity fulfills the commandments of Judaism. That could be a whole different thread.

If it's jmfcst, assume that any religious conversation is a lot more about Christianity than whatever is actually being discussed.

For you, that was a decent attempt at humor.  It might actually have been funny...

...except for the fact ALL the scriptural based portions of Judaism are about nothing but Christ.

John 5:39 "You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me"

But Christ came after scripture. So wouldn't Jewish scripture be...about Judaism? I'm confused. What form of paradoxical backwards future looking are you doing there?

Just to put history into perspective for you:

Jews --> Bible --> Christ --> New Testament

Obviously with some stuff in between. So the Old Testament is about Jews. The New is about taking the Old and applying it to Jesus.

And if this is not the case, care to explain?

I really should call it a night, but...

jmfcst's argument, or, rather, Saint Paul's argument is that Jesus of Nazareth completed the Laws of Moses.  By His sacrifice, he absolved man of rites like circumcision and dietary restrictions.

EDIT:  So therefore the entire purpose of the Hebrew Scriptures would, in jmfcst's logic, be pointing to the coming of Jesus.  See Moses' prediction of a prophet like himself, Isaiah 52, etc.

I think that that's a silly way to read the Bible, but...