Judaism

[The Mikado]

I have had a lot of contact with jews and jewish culture, I've always enjoyed it.

My grandmother is a bloodline jewess, but she was raised a lutheran and converted to Catholism.

I like the intellectual side of it, which is sorely lacking in Christianity. But I love ham/bacon/prescuito and seafood... and especially dislike the idea of a scalpel. So no deal.

Just FYI, the word Jewess is no longer in general usage.

[The Mikado]

Yes, I have a question. What precisely is Conservative Judaism?

More stringent than Reform, less than Orthodox.

[The Mikado]

As Ben said, they would probably make you wear a head covering in the Sanctuary, but otherwise, Temples/Synagogues tend to be very open as long as you aren't obviously dangerous.  I wouldn't suggest popping into an Orthodox one, just because you'd stand out so thoroughly and the Orthodox tend to be a pretty insular bunch, but Reform and Conservative congregations are usually not only willing but eager to interface with the outside world.  After all, those are the branches of Judaism that value blending in with the Gentile world and take great pains to avoid seeming alien or unwelcoming.

[The Mikado]

If I am a conservative Jew, what am I politically?

Heh

Nice joke.

Seriously, though, probably a hawkish socially-and-economically-moderately-liberal Democrat who doesn't want his kids to be gay or his daughter to have an abortion but doesn't want those banned.

[The Mikado]

Keeping Kosher has been tough for me, but I still do it just because I know I would be letting my family down and would feel extremely guilty if I stopped.

Really? It shouldn't be too hard.

Not mixing dairy products and meat in a meal is intense.  My friends who do it have to constantly be on their watch.  A chicken caesar salad isn't kosher!

Also, having to make sure any animal you eat was bled.  That guarantees that you can only be comfortable buying meat from the kosher butcher.

Most people I know who are serious about keeping kosher end up becoming at least functional vegetarians, because it simplifies everything.

[The Mikado]

While you're here, dcunited15, what's with the "chow chow" signature?

[The Mikado]

Anti-Semitism in America usually has to do with Jews' apparently disproportionate power and wealth compared with their size in the population.  Like Torie says, outward anti-Semitism, especially from Christian sources, is on the decline.

Traditional anti-Semitism has to do with a deep-rooted problem in Christianity: the Jews rejected Jesus, plotted to kill him, and handed him over to the Romans.  Early Christians asked themselves, "If Jesus was the Son of God, the long-foretold Messiah, why would God's own Chosen People reject him?"  This question led to a deep-seated conviction among early Christians that the very existence of Jews was an argument against their religion.

[The Mikado]

Circumcision would be an equivalent, no? Or at least, it would've. It's done too early for that purpose these days.

thank you I couldn't quit get it off the tip of my tongue.

The proximity of these two comments...   

And on that note, good night, ladies and gentlemen!

[The Mikado]

I was aware of all that. That's why I was curious why you were quoting the New Testament above. Was it to show that Judaism influenced Christianity? Or was there another point?

it was to show how Christianity fulfilled spiritually what the physical circumcision had foreshadowed.

Oh, I thought we were discussing Judaism though, not how Christianity fulfills the commandments of Judaism. That could be a whole different thread.

If it's jmfcst, assume that any religious conversation is a lot more about Christianity than whatever is actually being discussed.

For you, that was a decent attempt at humor.  It might actually have been funny...

...except for the fact ALL the scriptural based portions of Judaism are about nothing but Christ.

John 5:39 "You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me"

But Christ came after scripture. So wouldn't Jewish scripture be...about Judaism? I'm confused. What form of paradoxical backwards future looking are you doing there?

Just to put history into perspective for you:

Jews --> Bible --> Christ --> New Testament

Obviously with some stuff in between. So the Old Testament is about Jews. The New is about taking the Old and applying it to Jesus.

And if this is not the case, care to explain?

I really should call it a night, but...

jmfcst's argument, or, rather, Saint Paul's argument is that Jesus of Nazareth completed the Laws of Moses.  By His sacrifice, he absolved man of rites like circumcision and dietary restrictions.

EDIT:  So therefore the entire purpose of the Hebrew Scriptures would, in jmfcst's logic, be pointing to the coming of Jesus.  See Moses' prediction of a prophet like himself, Isaiah 52, etc.

I think that that's a silly way to read the Bible, but...

[The Mikado]

Shavuot (and my own confirmation) are fast approaching!  Only 9 more days!

You staying up to read Ruth?

[The Mikado]

Good luck, Ben.  I'm glad I don't have to put up with all that stuff anymore, but nonetheless...

If I've offended anyone here this past year, sorry.

[The Mikado]

Good luck, Ben.  I'm glad I don't have to put up with all that stuff anymore, but nonetheless...

If I've offended anyone here this past year, sorry.

Are you Jewish?

"I'm glad I don't have to put up with all that stuff anymore" kind of suggests that if he was, he isn't, no?

Alcon said it.  I'm an ex-Jew.  I'm a nothing, now.

[The Mikado]

Well, the Talmud does try some degree of interpretation that ends up tangential at best to the original rule, most famously by making Exodus' command not to boil a baby goat in iits mother's milk into a prohibition of mixing meat and dairy.

[The Mikado]

I get the impression that if jmfcst had been born Jewish, he'd be a rabid Karaite.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karaite

(They're pretty obscure nowadays)

[The Mikado]

I get the impression that if jmfcst had been born Jewish, he'd be a rabid Karaite.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karaite

(They're pretty obscure nowadays)

I've never seen (or heard of) them in my life.

They were a big deal in the Medieval era.  Not so much since. 

[The Mikado]

I actually have a (probably quite stupid) question: what is the 'official' line of judaism on converts from other religions? And how do the various communities look on the issue?

They're to be discouraged.  If someone really, really wants to convert, he goes into discussion with a Rabbi and gets put on the path to join, with extensive discouragement along the way.  Really, most of the people that convert to Judaism are people that marry in to the faith.

[The Mikado]

Because the Maccabeean Revolt is an actual historical event and Hannukah's observance is extensively discussed in the Talmud?

[The Mikado]

I have two questions: first, when does the Sabbath end for you?  I'm an Adventist and it always ended at sunset for us.  We had a Rabbi visit our church once and she said something about it ending when there are three stars visible in the sky.  Could you explain this discrepancy, please?

Second: With Rosh Hashanah going on right now, people keep referring to it as "the Jewish New Year."  I had always believed this until a man at my church said that the New Year began the week before Passover.  Which is it?  I know Rosh Hashanah is like the anniversary of Creation, but could you explain this also please?

PS: I am a proud Judeophile, so it might surprise you that I am asking these questions!

Firstly, the Jewish day (and therefore the Sabbath) goes from sunset to sunset. I think the Rabbi may have been using metaphors, because I've never heard that. Secondly, it is the Jewish new year, as in the anniversary of creation, and it was the new year at Rosh Hashanah, not the week before passover.

A guy from my church said that the new year began the week before Passover.  And would Jews sacrifice animals again if the Temple were rebuilt?  Granted it's unlikely, but still...

Rosh Hashanah is the switchover on calendar years, but it's the "first day of the seventh month," leading to centuries of jokes about Jews being the only people stiff-necked and obstinate enough to start their year in the seventh month rather than the first.  Passover is about half a year removed from Rosh Hashanah, so maybe it's the resetting of months (not sure here)?

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As far as animal sacrifice goes, the answer is yes, it would hypothetically be practiced in a hypothetical Third Temple (along with the return of a hereditary priestly caste), but very few actual Jews would go along with it and it would probably lead to a schism in the faith.

[The Mikado]

Yeah, religiously scholarly Orthodox Jews would be the first people to reject stuff based on literal interpretation of the Bible because the Bible is only half of the story (and not even the most important half) compared to the Talmudic intellectual tradition that accompanies everything.  Judaism does not have a sola scriptura attitude towards the Hebrew Bible.  Creationism etc. are the product of Protestant Christianity's attempts to make the book the entirety of religion and the belief that any person can interpret the scripture for him or herself.  The Ortodox Jewish perspective is that even the Hebrew Bible itself is incomplete without Rashi's commentary.

EDIT: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shnayim_mikra_ve-echad_targum

[The Mikado]

Just how different are the Jewish texts and the "Old Testament"?

Well, the Jewish Bible is the Tanakh, which is an acronym (the T stands for Torah, the N for Nevi'im or Prophets, and the K for Ketuvim or writings) and the Tanakh is assembled in that order.  Thus, the Jewish Tanakh has a different order of its books than a Protestant New Testament (and, as the poster above me mentioned, the Catholic Old Testament has a number of books that aren't in either the Jewish or Protestant Old Testament).  The main difference between a Jewish Tanakh and a Protestant Old Testament is the ordering of the books and that there's a general idea that the Torah is more important than everything else in the canon.

That said, Jewish canon doesn't end with the scripture itself, and the thousands-year old commentaries on commentaries on commentaries has a sort of secondary canonical power itself.  The first layer is the Mishnah, which is a compilation of rabbinic commentary and interpretation from ~100 BCE to ~200 CE.  The Gemara, a set of discussions on the Mishnah written between ~200 CE, to 500 CE, is the next level down.  The Mishnah and the Gemara are together known as the Talmud, a document about 5 times as long as the Tanakh itself.

In addition, there are various non-canonical but elucidating rabbinical myths called the Midrash that serve to explain various Bible stories.  The Book of Exodus says that Moses has a speech impediment?  The Rabbis invented a Midrash explaining why he did: young Moses, in his Prince of Egypt days, was offered a choice between grabbing a golden idol or a bundle of burning coal.  He touched the coal instead of the idol, then, as children do, touched it to his mouth, burning his tongue.  The Midrash are explicitly non-canonical but the better ones are quite famous and are treated as semi-canonical anyway.