Gay Marriage- a general discussion.

[migrendel]

We are on a strange promontory of history, where we shall be forced to forge a new direction or fall into old habits. It is my suggestion that we do the former.

Fifty years ago, our nation was segregated. A standard of separate but equal was thought to be acceptable. We finally moved away from thinking, after a national crisis of conscience. Today, we must reject this Jim Crow of human sexuality. We must realize once again that separate is inherently unequal, because it reinforces a feeling of group inferiority. We must oppose the Plessy v. Ferguson of our era, civil unions, because they send the same message that we sent to little black children when they had to go to dilapidated schools. And after all we've been through as nation, and how deep our yet unsealed wounds are, I don't see how we could start another war over a cultural issue, this time revolving around a scarlet H. Shades of Hesther Prynne with a female lover.

And some, like Ryan and PBrunsel, have said that same-sex marriage would undermine social order. But whose idea of social order? Is it really up to the government to adjudicate the desirability of such a union? Because I'll tell you, genders don't fall in love, people do. Should we really cudgel our brains over rising rates of divorce and illegitimacy? That might be the currency of thought out in Iowa, but where I come from, we view love as more important than a scrap of paper proclaiming husband and wife, or any other permutation our society might allow, and children are gifts to be wanted, loved, and cherished, regardless of whether their parents are married or not. Are you, the stalwart defender of "the defenseless unborn" going to say that the birth of an illegitimate child is less desirable?

We have history to write. It can remember us as a fair and broad-minded people who valued and treated their neighbors as equals, even if they were different. Or we can be judged harshly just like those who handed down Dred Scott, those who opposed suffrage, those who put Jim Crow in place, and those who confined the Japanese to concentration camps, because we were too myopic to justice to recognize the eminent wisdom of civil rights. I know which side I'm on.

[migrendel]

Yes, I have Jmfcst. It was a white wedding, but judging by the physical appearance of the bride, I cannot be shocked about their virginity.

[migrendel]

I would say that it isn't discrimination based upon sexual orientation for the very reason you stated, Rightwingnut. But it is indeed gender discrimination, because the license is denied because of the gender of one of the couple. Therefore, the line of cases starting at Reed v. Reed, applied to marriage in Orr v. Orr and Frontiero v. Richardson, and recently extended to sexual orientation in Lawrence v. Texas make the current marriage laws Constitutionally illegitimate.

[migrendel]

You haven't written a syllable about my contradiction, Rightwingnut. If you wait much longer, I will take it as a sign that you have conceded the legal framework of your opinion.

[migrendel]

An interesting account of an eerily reminiscent situation in France:
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/06/13/weekinreview/13cald.html

[migrendel]

Then teach your children that the law as it stands is wrong, John Ford. But don't use your tired and paternalistic ideas about what is right and wrong to hinder my right to decide whom I should marry. I wouldn't have the hubris to make that choice for you.

[migrendel]

Just because something is old doesn't mean it's correct, John. I'm sure many people resisted switching over to the flush toilet. I also cannot see your point about popular sovereignty. I will never believe that a majority of a state's voters should replace the rightful wisdom of judges in the interpretation of equal protection, even if extending basic civil rights to victims of discrimination is controversial. I cannot believe that citizens should replace the legally educated in deciding the structure of laws.

[migrendel]

That is not exclusive to homosexuals. You can find condoms in vending machines in bars regardless of the sexual orientation of the patrons. You can see shop windows bedizened with the apparati of gratification, including ones used by heterosexuals. And there is no need for any reminder about the multi-billion dollar predominantly heterosexual pornography industry.

I also think you are very misinformed when you think we cannot love. I have know lust, the same as anyone, but I have been lucky to know love too. That love was built on concern and respect, not sex. Sex is a transient thrill, but love sustains us. And if any of you are fortunate enough to have loved, regardless of who it is, be grateful for it every day.

[migrendel]

First of all, homosexuals can't reproduce. Second of all, the American Academy of Pediatrics says the adopted children of homosexuals show no real variances from other children. But I'm sure an exhaustively conducted study by a mainstream medical organization doesn't count because it's, according to several staunch conservatives, liberal.

[migrendel]

I shall simply disregard that statement about the maturity of love, Brambila. For you to say that reveals more about your lack of knowledge about this topic than anything else.

[migrendel]

Sexual fixation? Now, I enjoy sex just as much as the next person, but I have loved for reasons other than sex. I don't see how you can call it immature and categorically dismiss it, because it is a love you have never experienced. Science is an excellent tool, but when you attempt to place such a judgment upon the most personal feelings, you enter a place where it cannot quantify the most elusive and quicksilver thing of all, human love.

[migrendel]

I'm sure that there are places like you described, Brambila. But I can tell you, in any city, there are districts where pornography is sold and screened, where sex toys are offered to the consumer, where prostitution is practiced, and contraception is vended. But it is done by heterosexuals. The fact is, there is a segment of the population regardless of sexual orientation that patronizes such establishments. In addition, you bring up the argument that there are homosexuals that molest teenagers of the same gender. There are heterosexuals who molest teenagers of a different gender. The things that you seem to be upset about are less homosexual things, and could be better described as behaviors practiced by certain segments of the population cutting across the line of orientation.

What's wrong with having quite a few sexual partners? No one has brought that up. It seems to be a sacred cow, something that cannot be questioned, but if you are careful not to spread disease, what arguments can be made against it other than that you might think it's immoral? I'm sure many people would prefer erotic variation to fidelity.

[migrendel]

There's a reason why all those sex shops are in one area. It has to do with zoning. The Supreme Court ruled in the case of Young v. American Mini Theatres that cities have a right to regulate the spacing of places that sell pornography and sexually related merchandise. San Francisco might have designated a few small areas, and the ones with predominantly homosexual patronage might be located in that particular area, because of the concentration of people of that affiliation in that area.

As for them being sexual addicts, I guess that's something that they can come together with Newt Gingrich on in a bipartisan coalition.

[migrendel]

Well, Brambila, I'm sure you're aware that I support lowering the age of consent to 13 or 14, because I believe mature minors are entitled to sexual liberty and privacy (q.v. Carey v. Population Services International, and the age of maturity in common law as practiced, 14). This has been pulled of in several European countries with nary a hitch.

[migrendel]

From my research and reading, I would say the most sensible way to classify sexual tendencies would be as follows: Pedophilia is something totally different than homosexuality, ephebophilia involves a homosexual tendency with a pathological aspect, and sexual attraction towards adults could be described as a mature and developed homosexual tendency.