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Question: are Mormons Christians?
yes   -27 (57.4%)
no   -20 (42.6%)
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Author Topic: are Mormons Christians?  (Read 16362 times)
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jmfcst
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« Reply #50 on: February 18, 2008, 11:27:04 am »
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I meant:  What is the purpose of this doctrine?  What action from you does this doctrine prompt?  If it explains the "full" plan of salvation, does knowledge of this full plan of salvation require you to do anything different?

What is the purpose of this doctrine?
What is the purpose of any doctrine?  For example, what exactly is the purpose of knowing about and believe original sin?

What action from you does this doctrine prompt?
The knowledge of the Pre-Mortal life sets clear and answers the questions that God does indeed have a plan for us on the Earth.

 If it explains the "full" plan of salvation, does knowledge of this full plan of salvation require you to do anything different?
Oh yes, it affirms the very reason we are here, it strengthens the faith and knowledge of the goodness of God.

The purpose of any doctrine (false or true) is to prompt action from the believer. 

The purpose of knowing we inhereted a sinful nature from Adam and Eve is to know:
1) Where sin originated in humans - so that we know we were born into a system of sin
2) That we cannot be sinless - thus we understand we need Grace and renewal

---

Back on the topic of Pre-Mortal Existence - from a Mormon perspective, why did you need to come to earth?  Did you fall from a previous heavenly position by sinning prior to coming to earth and your earthly life is somehow an attempt to recapture that position? 

And at what time did your heavenly life end as compared with your birthdate on earth?  Did your heavenly life end thousands of years ago and you waited in limbo to be born on earth?
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I looked over Jordan, and what did I see?
Coming for to carry me home,
A band of angels coming after me,
Coming for to carry me home.

Swing low, sweet chariot,
Coming for to carry me home.
Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.
jmfcst
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« Reply #51 on: February 18, 2008, 02:03:39 pm »
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The purpose of knowing we inhereted a sinful nature from Adam and Eve is to know:
1) Where sin originated in humans - so that we know we were born into a system of sin
2) That we cannot be sinless - thus we understand we need Grace and renewal

That's not provoking an action; that's providing a belief.  Same thing as what I'm saying.

belief provokes action, but we are saying the same thing

---

No, we lived in a state of not knowing good from evil, we had to come to Earth to gain knowledge.

how do you gain this knowledge on earth that you couldn't gain in your previous life?
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I looked over Jordan, and what did I see?
Coming for to carry me home,
A band of angels coming after me,
Coming for to carry me home.

Swing low, sweet chariot,
Coming for to carry me home.
Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.
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« Reply #52 on: February 18, 2008, 02:15:59 pm »
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how do you gain this knowledge on earth that you couldn't gain in your previous life?

There was no temptation (as we were in God's presence), no way to do either good or evil.  The state can be compared to Adam and Eve before they partook of the forbidden fruit.

EDIT:  I should clarify, the state of mind of Adam and Eve, not knowing good from evil or having their eyes opened to sin.  The state can not be compared to there being no temptation..as clearly Adam and Eve had temptation.

ok, I understand your explanation why you couldn't obtain it in Heaven, but how did you gain knowledge of good and evil here on earth?
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I looked over Jordan, and what did I see?
Coming for to carry me home,
A band of angels coming after me,
Coming for to carry me home.

Swing low, sweet chariot,
Coming for to carry me home.
Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.
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« Reply #53 on: February 18, 2008, 02:37:22 pm »
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ok, I understand your explanation why you couldn't obtain it in Heaven, but how did you gain knowledge of good and evil here on earth?

Well this is pretty much the purpose of life, religion, and living a Christian life.  Trial and error, sinning and repentance, the scriptures and Jesus Christ.  These are a few things that lead people to gain that knowledge.

Let's take the first murder in the Bible, Cain murders Abel, is this a good or bad thing?  Up until that point that sort of sin had never been on Earth.  Why was Cain guilty?  Simply put because the Lord said so, murder is evil.  Since we have all experienced some sort of sin in our lives we know what good and what is evil.  Our guide to not commit those sins is Jesus Christ.

So God put you on earth so that through sin you might gain knowledge that harms you?  I don't get it.  Why was it necessary to gain this knowledge?  What benefit is there to sinning?

In any case, what kind of being were you before coming to earth?  Were you an angel or some other kind of spiritual being? 
« Last Edit: February 18, 2008, 02:45:53 pm by jmfcst »Logged

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I looked over Jordan, and what did I see?
Coming for to carry me home,
A band of angels coming after me,
Coming for to carry me home.

Swing low, sweet chariot,
Coming for to carry me home.
Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.
jmfcst
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« Reply #54 on: February 18, 2008, 03:12:53 pm »
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What is the point of life; from your view?

For the same reason Eve was created for Adam; we were created to provide God companionship:

"It is not good for man to be alone"

---

An unembodied spirit.

And what was God to you before coming to earth, and what will God be to you after this life?
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9Y_GLT4_9I

I looked over Jordan, and what did I see?
Coming for to carry me home,
A band of angels coming after me,
Coming for to carry me home.

Swing low, sweet chariot,
Coming for to carry me home.
Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.
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« Reply #55 on: February 18, 2008, 05:14:29 pm »
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sorry I meant what was your relationship to God, and what will it be?
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9Y_GLT4_9I

I looked over Jordan, and what did I see?
Coming for to carry me home,
A band of angels coming after me,
Coming for to carry me home.

Swing low, sweet chariot,
Coming for to carry me home.
Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.
jmfcst
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« Reply #56 on: February 18, 2008, 07:07:40 pm »
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sorry I meant what was your relationship to God, and what will it be?

The relationship is the same then, now, and in the future...He is the Father.

and, according to Joseph Smith, where did the Father come from?  What were his origins?
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9Y_GLT4_9I

I looked over Jordan, and what did I see?
Coming for to carry me home,
A band of angels coming after me,
Coming for to carry me home.

Swing low, sweet chariot,
Coming for to carry me home.
Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.
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« Reply #57 on: February 18, 2008, 07:18:11 pm »
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sorry I meant what was your relationship to God, and what will it be?

The relationship is the same then, now, and in the future...He is the Father.

and, according to Joseph Smith, where did the Father come from?  What were his origins?

There is no firm doctrine on that.

huh?  Joseph Smith didn't teach that God was created by another "god" and was once a man who lived on another planet before attaining godhood?
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9Y_GLT4_9I

I looked over Jordan, and what did I see?
Coming for to carry me home,
A band of angels coming after me,
Coming for to carry me home.

Swing low, sweet chariot,
Coming for to carry me home.
Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.
jmfcst
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« Reply #58 on: February 18, 2008, 07:33:54 pm »
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and, according to Joseph Smith, where did the Father come from?  What were his origins?

There is no firm doctrine on that.

huh?  Joseph Smith didn't teach that God was created by another "god" and was once a man who lived on another planet before attaining godhood?

Nope.

then who was it that said, "We were begotten by our Father in Heaven; the person of our Father in Heaven was begotten on a previous heavenly world by His Father; and again, He was begotten by a still more ancient Father, and so one, from one generation to generation"
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9Y_GLT4_9I

I looked over Jordan, and what did I see?
Coming for to carry me home,
A band of angels coming after me,
Coming for to carry me home.

Swing low, sweet chariot,
Coming for to carry me home.
Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.
jmfcst
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« Reply #59 on: February 18, 2008, 07:45:22 pm »
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then who was it that said, "We were begotten by our Father in Heaven; the person of our Father in Heaven was begotten on a previous heavenly world by His Father; and again, He was begotten by a still more ancient Father, and so one, from one generation to generation"

If I had to take a guess it would be Orson Pratt.

wasn't he among the coucil of twelve?  the same council that formed the Mormon doctrine?

---

  Nevertheless, as I stated before, and have to state unequivocally again:  There is no firm doctrine around this subject.  I find it absolutely pointless for someone to be checking on old quotes that have no basis for firm Church doctrine.

ok, but isn't this from Joseph Smith

"God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted Man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens...I say, if you were to see him to-day, you would see him like a man in form -- like yourselves, in all the person, image, and very form as a man....it is necessary that we should understand the character and being of God, and how he came to be so; for I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity,  I will refute that idea, and will take away and do away the veil, so that you may see....and that he was once a man like us; yea, that God himself the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth the same as Jesus Christ himself did." (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 6, p. 3).
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9Y_GLT4_9I

I looked over Jordan, and what did I see?
Coming for to carry me home,
A band of angels coming after me,
Coming for to carry me home.

Swing low, sweet chariot,
Coming for to carry me home.
Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.
jmfcst
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« Reply #60 on: February 18, 2008, 07:47:51 pm »
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he is the link of what Joseph Smith wrote:

http://journalofdiscourses.org/Vol_06/refJDvol6-1.html
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9Y_GLT4_9I

I looked over Jordan, and what did I see?
Coming for to carry me home,
A band of angels coming after me,
Coming for to carry me home.

Swing low, sweet chariot,
Coming for to carry me home.
Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.
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« Reply #61 on: February 18, 2008, 08:02:32 pm »
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hey, don't shoot the messenger, I'm just quoting from what he preached.

In fact, he didn't claim it was his opinion, but rather he opened the sermon by saying, "I calculate to edify you with the simple truths from heaven."

so, it doesn't bother you that Joseph Smith opined the following?

"These are the first principles of consolation. How consoling to the mourners, when they are called to part with a husband, wife, father, mother, child, or dear relative, to know that, although the earthly tabernacle is laid down and dissolved, they shall rise again, to dwell in everlasting burnings in immortal glory, not to sorrow, suffer, or die any more; but they shall be heirs of God and joint-heirs with Jesus Christ. What is it? To inherit the same power, the same glory, and the same exaltation, until you arrive at the station of a God and ascend the throne of eternal power, the same as those who have gone before. What did Jesus do? Why, I do the things I saw my Father do when worlds come rolling into existence. My Father worked out his kingdom with fear and trembling, and I must do the same; and when I get my kingdom, I shall present it to my Father, so that he may obtain kingdom upon kingdom, and it will exalt him in glory. He will then take higher exaltation, and I will take his place, and thereby become exalted myself. So that Jesus treads in the track of his Father, and inherits what God did before; and God is thus glorified and exalted in the salvation and exaltation of all his children. It is plain beyond disputation; and you thus learn some of the first principles of the Gospel, about which so much hath been said."

---

so, if you have researched it all, did you find any verses in your bible that refuted Joseph Smith's opinion?
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9Y_GLT4_9I

I looked over Jordan, and what did I see?
Coming for to carry me home,
A band of angels coming after me,
Coming for to carry me home.

Swing low, sweet chariot,
Coming for to carry me home.
Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.
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« Reply #62 on: February 18, 2008, 08:16:04 pm »
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hey, don't shoot the messenger, I'm just quoting from what he preached.

When the "messenger" clearly changes from being an inquisitive person to drumming up a traditional anti-Mormon argument, I will call him on it.  I've said this before and it seems I have to say it again, the JD is opinion and non-authoritative.  There is no basis for any of what you said in Church doctrine.

an anti-Mormon argument?  How can a posted sermon of Joseph Smith's be considered an anti-Mormon argument? Who is making the anti-Mormon argument, Joseph Smith himself? 

I am simply asking if you agree with the sermon and have it to be in agreement with the bible.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9Y_GLT4_9I

I looked over Jordan, and what did I see?
Coming for to carry me home,
A band of angels coming after me,
Coming for to carry me home.

Swing low, sweet chariot,
Coming for to carry me home.
Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.
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« Reply #63 on: February 18, 2008, 08:27:18 pm »
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an anti-Mormon argument?  How can a posted sermon of Joseph Smith's be considered an anti-Mormon argument? Who is making the anti-Mormon argument, Joseph Smith himself? 

I am simply asking if you agree with the sermon and have it to be in agreement with the bible.

Seriously dude, don't try to play around with me here.  You can quote all you want from the Journal of Discourses, but that does not make them authoritative in the Church theology.  You can try to pawn this off as you are merely quoting Joseph Smith, and ask this question: "Who is making the anti-Mormon argument, Joseph Smith himself?"  But your purpose is sinister in trying to apply opinion to LDS Church doctrine.

ok, I agree it is his opinion.  but do you agree with it or not?  I haven't disagreed with any of the pasages you quoted to support what you believe, rather I have simply let you state what you believe without arguing with you.  So why can't you answer if you agree or not with this sermon of Joseph Smith's?
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Do not fight with one another over my banning.  I've enjoyed the time I have spent with all of you, but the time really has come for me to leave.  It is what I want.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9Y_GLT4_9I

I looked over Jordan, and what did I see?
Coming for to carry me home,
A band of angels coming after me,
Coming for to carry me home.

Swing low, sweet chariot,
Coming for to carry me home.
Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.
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« Reply #64 on: February 18, 2008, 08:34:49 pm »
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ok, I agree it is his opinion.  but do you agree with it or not?  I haven't disagreed with any of the pasages you quoted to support what you believe, rather I have simply let you state what you believe without arguing with you.  So why can't you answer if you agree or not with this sermon of Joseph Smith's?

I can answer that, I just wanted to make plainly sure that the JD is opinion.  I also know that you haven't argued with me on my beliefs, though at many opportunities I know you could have.  Having said that, no I don't agree with the quote that you gave.

What do you find biblically wrong with the sermon?

Do you share the same opinion of the the Journals of Discourses (JD) that Joseph Smith had?:

"It is impossible to give monetary value to the past volumes of this publication, … Those who read the utterances of the servants of God, contained in this book, under the same influence by which the speakers were inspired, cannot fail to receive profit from the perusal."  President Joseph F. Smith, Preface, Journals of Discourses Vol.18.

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9Y_GLT4_9I

I looked over Jordan, and what did I see?
Coming for to carry me home,
A band of angels coming after me,
Coming for to carry me home.

Swing low, sweet chariot,
Coming for to carry me home.
Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.
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« Reply #65 on: February 18, 2008, 09:02:20 pm »
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again I ask, what did you find biblically wrong with Joseph Smith's sermon?
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9Y_GLT4_9I

I looked over Jordan, and what did I see?
Coming for to carry me home,
A band of angels coming after me,
Coming for to carry me home.

Swing low, sweet chariot,
Coming for to carry me home.
Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.
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« Reply #66 on: February 18, 2008, 09:10:18 pm »
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What do you find biblically wrong with the sermon?

Do you share the same opinion of the the Journals of Discourses (JD) that Joseph Smith had?:

"It is impossible to give monetary value to the past volumes of this publication, … Those who read the utterances of the servants of God, contained in this book, under the same influence by which the speakers were inspired, cannot fail to receive profit from the perusal."  President Joseph F. Smith, Preface, Journals of Discourses Vol.18.

The preface was written by Joseph F. Smith, a descendant of Hyrum Smith, Joseph Smith's brother.  I do believe the Journal of Discourses provides good insight, but some of the opinion therein do not exactly stand in par with LDS Church doctrine.

Joseph F. Smith was also a president of the LDS Church
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9Y_GLT4_9I

I looked over Jordan, and what did I see?
Coming for to carry me home,
A band of angels coming after me,
Coming for to carry me home.

Swing low, sweet chariot,
Coming for to carry me home.
Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.
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« Reply #67 on: February 18, 2008, 09:34:29 pm »
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I could make a Biblical argument both ways.  It depends on how literal you take the passage.  If I take the word "same" as meaning "exact" I would not agree with it.  However, it is stated in the Bible that we will be heirs of the Kingdom of God.

so you think God is going to get promoted and you're going to take God's place and be exalted yourself? 
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9Y_GLT4_9I

I looked over Jordan, and what did I see?
Coming for to carry me home,
A band of angels coming after me,
Coming for to carry me home.

Swing low, sweet chariot,
Coming for to carry me home.
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« Reply #68 on: February 18, 2008, 10:06:23 pm »
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I could make a Biblical argument both ways.  It depends on how literal you take the passage.  If I take the word "same" as meaning "exact" I would not agree with it.  However, it is stated in the Bible that we will be heirs of the Kingdom of God.

so you think God is going to get promoted and you're going to take God's place and be exalted yourself? 

No.
Then what do you think the passage means by being heirs of God?
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« Reply #69 on: February 19, 2008, 10:54:31 am »
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Mr. Fresh

I'm going to be very busy today and maybe the rest of this week, so I won't be able to post.

So, I'll cut to the chase:  This line of questioning is to determine if you are capable of critiquing church leadership when you consider that they are in error.

I'd like to also see you conclude whether or not God was created by another god or if God was always God. and back up your conclusion with any scripture you'd like.

Peace.
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Do not fight with one another over my banning.  I've enjoyed the time I have spent with all of you, but the time really has come for me to leave.  It is what I want.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9Y_GLT4_9I

I looked over Jordan, and what did I see?
Coming for to carry me home,
A band of angels coming after me,
Coming for to carry me home.

Swing low, sweet chariot,
Coming for to carry me home.
Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.
jmfcst
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« Reply #70 on: February 19, 2008, 02:03:57 pm »
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As for the God question, there is no real evidence that God was created by another being.  There are plain scriptures that point to this.  I will also give a scripture from Mormon writ to back that.

Quote
Revelation 22:13
13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

Agreed

---

Doctrine and Covenants 20:11-12
11 Proving to the world that the holy scriptures are true, and that God does inspire men and call them to his holy work in this age and generation, as well as in generations of old;
12 Thereby showing that he is the same God yesterday, today, and forever. Amen.
 

Although I agree with the conclusion, they made quite a leap in logic by saying that God calls people today as he did yesterday therefore God is unchanging.  I've brushed my teeth for decades, but that doesn’t mean I haven’t changed.

---

If I may add some verses to put this issue to rest:

Deut 4:35 “the LORD is God; besides him there is no other.”

Deut 32:39 “See now that I myself am He! There is no god besides me.”

Isa 44:8 “Is there any God besides me? No, there is no other Rock; I know not one."

Therefore, unless God is a liar or has a bad memory, God was not created by another god, he didn’t begin on another planet as a man who attained godhood, rather he was and is the only God.  Always has been, always will be.

Agreed?

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Do not fight with one another over my banning.  I've enjoyed the time I have spent with all of you, but the time really has come for me to leave.  It is what I want.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9Y_GLT4_9I

I looked over Jordan, and what did I see?
Coming for to carry me home,
A band of angels coming after me,
Coming for to carry me home.

Swing low, sweet chariot,
Coming for to carry me home.
Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.
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« Reply #71 on: February 19, 2008, 02:24:50 pm »
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Deut 4:35 “the LORD is God; besides him there is no other.”

Deut 32:39 “See now that I myself am He! There is no god besides me.”

Isa 44:8 “Is there any God besides me? No, there is no other Rock; I know not one."

Therefore, unless God is a liar or has a bad memory, God was not created by another god, he didn’t begin on another planet as a man who attained godhood, rather he was and is the only God.  Always has been, always will be.

Agreed?

Yes I would.

Ok, so then, if the leaders of the LDS Church disagreed with the following sermon by Joseph Smith...

"I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity,  I will refute that idea, and will take away and do away the veil, so that you may see....and that he was once a man like us"

...why did they reprint it decades later in their Journals of Discourses?  Why hold it up as an example of a great sermon?
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Do not fight with one another over my banning.  I've enjoyed the time I have spent with all of you, but the time really has come for me to leave.  It is what I want.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9Y_GLT4_9I

I looked over Jordan, and what did I see?
Coming for to carry me home,
A band of angels coming after me,
Coming for to carry me home.

Swing low, sweet chariot,
Coming for to carry me home.
Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.
jmfcst
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« Reply #72 on: February 19, 2008, 02:38:56 pm »
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so, are you saying that sermon didn't represent what Josepth Smith really believed and he simply had eaten some bad pizza that day?
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Do not fight with one another over my banning.  I've enjoyed the time I have spent with all of you, but the time really has come for me to leave.  It is what I want.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9Y_GLT4_9I

I looked over Jordan, and what did I see?
Coming for to carry me home,
A band of angels coming after me,
Coming for to carry me home.

Swing low, sweet chariot,
Coming for to carry me home.
Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.
jmfcst
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« Reply #73 on: February 19, 2008, 03:04:42 pm »
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so, are you saying that sermon didn't represent what Joseph Smith really believed and he simply had eaten some bad pizza that day?

lol, ok I'll highlight for you the most operative statement to the discussion:

Quote
...It includes practical advice as well as doctrinal discussion, some of which is speculative in nature and some of which is only of historical interest...

well, that speculation was certainly widespread among the leadership, since the church records demonstrate many of them teaching along the same lines.

Since they kept a record of the sermons, is there a record of a member of the LDS leadership rebuking and disagreeing with the "speculation" of that day?

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Do not fight with one another over my banning.  I've enjoyed the time I have spent with all of you, but the time really has come for me to leave.  It is what I want.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9Y_GLT4_9I

I looked over Jordan, and what did I see?
Coming for to carry me home,
A band of angels coming after me,
Coming for to carry me home.

Swing low, sweet chariot,
Coming for to carry me home.
Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.
jmfcst
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 18304
United States


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« Reply #74 on: February 20, 2008, 12:19:00 am »
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so, now that we agree that God was always God and will always be God:  "I am he; before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me." (Isa 43:10)

Who were you in your "pre-mortal" existence?

And who is Jesus Christ in the Mormon Church?
« Last Edit: February 20, 2008, 12:29:01 am by jmfcst »Logged

Do not fight with one another over my banning.  I've enjoyed the time I have spent with all of you, but the time really has come for me to leave.  It is what I want.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9Y_GLT4_9I

I looked over Jordan, and what did I see?
Coming for to carry me home,
A band of angels coming after me,
Coming for to carry me home.

Swing low, sweet chariot,
Coming for to carry me home.
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