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Author Topic: Abolition of the Penny Act [At Final Vote]  (Read 4299 times)
Verily
Cuivienen
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« on: February 26, 2008, 11:15:09 pm »
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Abolition of the Penny Act

Section 1: Findings
1. That the penny currently costs the government of Atlasia more money to produce than each penny is worth.
2. That transactions for which single pennies are necessary do not reflect increased precision in pricing.

Section 2: Minting
1. The Atlasian Mint shall no longer produce the Atlasian penny.
2. All materials used to produce pennies shall be redirected to the production of other denominations of currency or else sold as raw material.
3. This section shall take effect immediately upon the passage of this legislation.

Section 3: Exchange
1. The government of Atlasia shall offer to exchange with any and all banks pennies for higher coin denominations.
2. These pennies shall be melted down and either used to produce new coinage or sold as raw material as appropriate.
3. This section shall take effect immediately upon the passage of this legislation.

Section 4: Abolition
1. The penny shall no longer be legal tender within Atlasia.
2. All transactions currently involving denominations less than $0.05 shall be rounded upwards such that they may be completed using denominations of $0.05 and greater.
3. This section shall take effect on January 1, 2010.


(Sponsor: Verily)
« Last Edit: March 30, 2008, 02:59:08 pm by Verily »Logged
True Federalist
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« Reply #1 on: February 27, 2008, 04:32:29 pm »
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Wouldn't it be better if amounts were rounded to the nearest multiple of the half-dime than to all be rounded up?
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« Reply #2 on: February 27, 2008, 05:17:35 pm »
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I would prefer everything (excluding values of 1 cent to 5 cents inclusive) to be rounded down. If something costs $2.52 you can be sure as hell the retailer will sell it as $2.55. Across a national economy this could have an artificial effect on consumer price inflation.
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Verily
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« Reply #3 on: February 27, 2008, 09:30:42 pm »
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Wouldn't it be better if amounts were rounded to the nearest multiple of the half-dime than to all be rounded up?

I would imagine that would make calculations significantly more complicated than they need to be, but I'd be fine with rounding down instead of up.

Most rounding would be upwards anyway, with the huge number of prices ending in $0.09 to subconsciously lower the perceived price.
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Sensei
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« Reply #4 on: February 27, 2008, 10:04:58 pm »
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I don't see the point of the penny anymore... I support this bill.
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Former Moderate
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« Reply #5 on: February 28, 2008, 02:52:37 am »
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I'm a bit torn, actually.  The main reason for the penny would seem to be us bastards in the government who want to take out a number of cents from each dollar spent.  And investment accounts.

(Oh, and Walmart.  I mean, seriously, they sell stuff for $2.38 just because they can.)

As monetary transactions get increasingly reliant on technology, I think our "penny problem" will take care of itself.
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Verily
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« Reply #6 on: February 28, 2008, 12:10:10 pm »
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I'm a bit torn, actually.  The main reason for the penny would seem to be us bastards in the government who want to take out a number of cents from each dollar spent.  And investment accounts.

I think we could still do that, just with the understanding that values not ending in 5 or 0 would get rounded off. After all, though it may be $0.03 for every dollar spent, it's not calculated separately for each dollar but rather in bulk so that if $200 are spent, $6.00 are taken out.
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Former Moderate
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« Reply #7 on: February 28, 2008, 03:14:33 pm »
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Section 4: Abolition
1. The penny shall no longer be legal tender within Atlasia.
2. All transactions currently involving denominations less than $0.05 shall be rounded upwards such that they may be completed using denominations of $0.05 and greater.
3. This section shall take effect on January 1, 2010.

Okay, after further thought:

I motion to amend Section 4 part 2 as follows:

2. All government transactions currently involving denominations less than $0.05 shall be rounded upwards such that they may be completed using denominations of $0.05 and greater.

I'm not sure the government has the authority to legislate how private commercial entities do business and price their wares.  If stock exchanges wish to continue transactions to the penny (which makes for a more efficient market), I say let them.
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Verily
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« Reply #8 on: February 28, 2008, 08:21:18 pm »
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Section 4: Abolition
1. The penny shall no longer be legal tender within Atlasia.
2. All transactions currently involving denominations less than $0.05 shall be rounded upwards such that they may be completed using denominations of $0.05 and greater.
3. This section shall take effect on January 1, 2010.

Okay, after further thought:

I motion to amend Section 4 part 2 as follows:

2. All government transactions currently involving denominations less than $0.05 shall be rounded upwards such that they may be completed using denominations of $0.05 and greater.

I'm not sure the government has the authority to legislate how private commercial entities do business and price their wares.  If stock exchanges wish to continue transactions to the penny (which makes for a more efficient market), I say let them.

I'll accept that as friendly. I assume most retailers will go along with the shift anyway (or else keep non-rounded amounts as a discount for buying a lot, as with gasoline right now).
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Former Moderate
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« Reply #9 on: February 28, 2008, 08:36:11 pm »
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Section 4: Abolition
1. The penny shall no longer be legal tender within Atlasia.
2. All transactions currently involving denominations less than $0.05 shall be rounded upwards such that they may be completed using denominations of $0.05 and greater.
3. This section shall take effect on January 1, 2010.

Okay, after further thought:

I motion to amend Section 4 part 2 as follows:

2. All government transactions currently involving denominations less than $0.05 shall be rounded upwards such that they may be completed using denominations of $0.05 and greater.

I'm not sure the government has the authority to legislate how private commercial entities do business and price their wares.  If stock exchanges wish to continue transactions to the penny (which makes for a more efficient market), I say let them.

I'll accept that as friendly. I assume most retailers will go along with the shift anyway (or else keep non-rounded amounts as a discount for buying a lot, as with gasoline right now).

I'd assume retailers would go along willingly, sure.  But I'd anticipate the stock market to continue trading in multiples of a penny, since each penny could potentially represent hundreds of millions of dollars in market cap.
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Verily
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« Reply #10 on: February 28, 2008, 10:36:42 pm »
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Section 4: Abolition
1. The penny shall no longer be legal tender within Atlasia.
2. All transactions currently involving denominations less than $0.05 shall be rounded upwards such that they may be completed using denominations of $0.05 and greater.
3. This section shall take effect on January 1, 2010.

Okay, after further thought:

I motion to amend Section 4 part 2 as follows:

2. All government transactions currently involving denominations less than $0.05 shall be rounded upwards such that they may be completed using denominations of $0.05 and greater.

I'm not sure the government has the authority to legislate how private commercial entities do business and price their wares.  If stock exchanges wish to continue transactions to the penny (which makes for a more efficient market), I say let them.

I'll accept that as friendly. I assume most retailers will go along with the shift anyway (or else keep non-rounded amounts as a discount for buying a lot, as with gasoline right now).

I'd assume retailers would go along willingly, sure.  But I'd anticipate the stock market to continue trading in multiples of a penny, since each penny could potentially represent hundreds of millions of dollars in market cap.

Presumably. Don't some stocks trade in tenths of pennies right now anyway? (Not on the major markets, but on some markets.)
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Verily
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« Reply #11 on: March 01, 2008, 04:03:03 pm »
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Twenty-four hours having elapsed, the friendly amendment has been adopted.
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« Reply #12 on: March 01, 2008, 04:04:04 pm »
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Hypothetically, would it be viable to make pennies out of some sort of cheaper material?
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Verily
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« Reply #13 on: March 01, 2008, 07:10:51 pm »
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Hypothetically, would it be viable to make pennies out of some sort of cheaper material?

Probably yes, although we would have to work to preserve the appearance, but inflation has made the penny pointless anyway.
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True Democrat
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« Reply #14 on: March 02, 2008, 06:20:00 pm »
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A question to the sponsor, what about non-paper money transactions?  Would these still be rounded.  Also, how would this affect the stock and mercantile exchanges?
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Verily
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« Reply #15 on: March 02, 2008, 09:49:25 pm »
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A question to the sponsor, what about non-paper money transactions?  Would these still be rounded.  Also, how would this affect the stock and mercantile exchanges?

I've already accepted Moderate's amendment to limit the shift to government transactions (although retail would presumably follow suit).
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Meeker
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« Reply #16 on: March 14, 2008, 04:03:11 am »
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I know this sounds kind of ridiculous at first, but you would be shocked at how much the penny brings in for charities. I've also read a study that says that the up/down rounding could potentially cost $600 million to consumers. I may change my mind, but for now I'm inclined to oppose this.
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Verily
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« Reply #17 on: March 14, 2008, 07:36:45 pm »
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I don't see why what the penny brings in for charities wouldn't transfer over into nickels; that seems like a somewhat short-sighted argument to me.

As for rounding, any direct cost to the consumer would be more than made up for by reduced government minting costs which would free up money either for funding new or existing programs or for tax cuts. $600 million is, after all, only $2.00 per person.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2008, 10:59:47 pm by Verily »Logged
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« Reply #18 on: March 14, 2008, 08:07:46 pm »
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If there's fewer coins in circulation, there's fewer coins that people don't care about and give to charities. It's not like there are all of a sudden going to be a lot more nickels in circulation.

The reduced minting costs is a valid point.
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« Reply #19 on: March 16, 2008, 10:50:41 am »
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If the first finding is correct, it is hard not to support this bill at face value. The concerns I have are these:

-Will the $0.01 still be a valid measure in all affairs? From basics such as calculating interest to high-level stock trading, the cent is actually a widely used and invaluable unit in our monetary system. Whilst I am not opposed to ending the minting process, or even automatically to the recall, I need a gaurantee that the cent will still be valid in all areas.

-Is it not possible to simply cease production but still recognise pennies as legal tender into the future? If not, why not? There is plenty of precedent for coins and notes that are no longer printed but which are still olegal tender, in Atlasdia and worldwide.
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Verily
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« Reply #20 on: March 16, 2008, 11:38:46 pm »
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If the first finding is correct, it is hard not to support this bill at face value. The concerns I have are these:

-Will the $0.01 still be a valid measure in all affairs? From basics such as calculating interest to high-level stock trading, the cent is actually a widely used and invaluable unit in our monetary system. Whilst I am not opposed to ending the minting process, or even automatically to the recall, I need a gaurantee that the cent will still be valid in all areas.

As I indicated when I accepted Moderate's friendly amendment, yes, transactions at lower levels will still be valid, much as transactions at the $0.001 level are valid now without any coin to represent them.

Quote
-Is it not possible to simply cease production but still recognise pennies as legal tender into the future? If not, why not? There is plenty of precedent for coins and notes that are no longer printed but which are still olegal tender, in Atlasdia and worldwide.

I have no objections to such, but my primary feeling is that we should try to completely abandon the penny rather than allow it to linger. We can thereby more efficiently harvest what raw materials are still out there as pennies rather than allowing them to trickle in. If the majority opinion is against this, I have no strong devotion to this position.
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Verily
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« Reply #21 on: March 21, 2008, 07:52:38 pm »
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Does anyone have any further comments or amendments? If not, I'll move for a vote tomorrow.
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« Reply #22 on: March 23, 2008, 11:30:30 am »
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I offer an amendment; the striking of section 4. I see no great benefit in recalling pennies; and I can see the use in having at least the ability to have currency in the basic unit. By all means I support the ending of production of currency more expensive to produce than its face value, but if they already exist, why remove them from circulation?
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« Reply #23 on: March 23, 2008, 02:22:58 pm »
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I offer an amendment; the striking of section 4. I see no great benefit in recalling pennies; and I can see the use in having at least the ability to have currency in the basic unit. By all means I support the ending of production of currency more expensive to produce than its face value, but if they already exist, why remove them from circulation?

Such a position would muddy the waters regarding the penny's status and usage. The penny could effectively remain in circulation for several decades due to the lifespan of the penny (only lessened when the penny is effectively 'lost') as there would be no effort to recall them. At the same time retailers would begin to adjust to circumstances where the penny is not common legal tender.

I don't see any reason to abolish the penny.
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« Reply #24 on: March 23, 2008, 03:52:49 pm »
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This bill has its merits and I agree with some of the sections. However, I am opposed, for the time being, to the total abolition of the penny.
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