Christians:can you own two coats?

[dead0man]

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So, do you got two coats?  How do you couch that with the above verse and all the other parts of the Bible where Jesus tells you to give up all you don't absolutly need.  How do preachers driving Caddy's sleep at night knowing there are kids going to bed hungry in their same town?

(sorry if we've done this before)

[Fmr President & Senator Polnut]

That's the problem so many people get themselves into.

They try to make the bible and faith a system of absolutes... when it suits them.

[12th Doctor]

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So, do you got two coats?  How do you couch that with the above verse and all the other parts of the Bible where Jesus tells you to give up all you don't absolutly need.  How do preachers driving Caddy's sleep at night knowing there are kids going to bed hungry in their same town?

(sorry if we've done this before)

Catholic priests, depending on the diocese, make on average about $16,000/year... that is not including housing, of course.  Compared to the average "minister" that is a piffling sum.

Anyway, the idea here is that one should never have more than one needs for the sake of greed.

But you should also remember that this isn't then... you didn't need much back then, and today you need to leave something in the mattress for financial security.

[dead0man]

Anyway, the idea here is that one should never have more than one needs for the sake of greed.

But you should also remember that this isn't then... you didn't need much back then, and today you need to leave something in the mattress for financial security.

A $50k Caddy is for financial security?  Half a million dollar homes are for security?  I'll buy that you need to keep a little something around to keep yourself in bologna and cheese in ones old age, but that doesn't seem to be what 95% of the Christians I've met are doing.

[12th Doctor]

Anyway, the idea here is that one should never have more than one needs for the sake of greed.

But you should also remember that this isn't then... you didn't need much back then, and today you need to leave something in the mattress for financial security.

A $50k Caddy is for financial security?  Half a million dollar homes are for security?  I'll buy that you need to keep a little something around to keep yourself in bologna and cheese in ones old age, but that doesn't seem to be what 95% of the Christians I've met are doing.

Well, then you must be rolling with a different crowd than myself because 95% of the Christians I've met are lower-middle class.  I think statistics will back me up on that.

[Verily]

Anyway, the idea here is that one should never have more than one needs for the sake of greed.

But you should also remember that this isn't then... you didn't need much back then, and today you need to leave something in the mattress for financial security.

A $50k Caddy is for financial security?  Half a million dollar homes are for security?  I'll buy that you need to keep a little something around to keep yourself in bologna and cheese in ones old age, but that doesn't seem to be what 95% of the Christians I've met are doing.

Well, then you must be rolling with a different crowd than myself because 95% of the Christians I've met are lower-middle class.  I think statistics will back me up on that.

The lower middle class are as guilty, although you might argue that two televisions and an SUV are necessary.

[dead0man]

Do you not have any "mega" churches in your corner of PA?  We've got a handfull here and the parking lots are full of BMW's, giant SUV's, and hundreds of other new cars.

I don't know, maybe I shouldn't judge.  But I know it certainly sets a horrible example for other Christians to follow and non-Christians to see.

[12th Doctor]

Anyway, the idea here is that one should never have more than one needs for the sake of greed.

But you should also remember that this isn't then... you didn't need much back then, and today you need to leave something in the mattress for financial security.

A $50k Caddy is for financial security?  Half a million dollar homes are for security?  I'll buy that you need to keep a little something around to keep yourself in bologna and cheese in ones old age, but that doesn't seem to be what 95% of the Christians I've met are doing.

Well, then you must be rolling with a different crowd than myself because 95% of the Christians I've met are lower-middle class.  I think statistics will back me up on that.

The lower middle class are as guilty, although you might argue that two televisions and an SUV are necessary.

I'm not going to disagree with at least part of your sentiment in that I think many people are incredibly wasteful... but quite a bit has changed since Biblical times... there are things we can do and things we have now that simply were not an option or didn't exist 2000 years ago.  No offense to Christ, but it was easier to be a wandering hippie 2000 years ago.  People often take Christ's teachings on wealth way out of perspective. For instance, the teaching that it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than it is for a rich man to get into heaven might not be saying exactly what we think it is.  There is an interpretation of this line that has gained alot of momentum recently, and that is that Christ was talking about "The Needle's Eye" which was a gate in Jerusalem that remained open after sunset, but was left particularly small so that men could only go through one at a time.  It is, indeed possible to get a camel through there, but it is difficult, and the camel would have to be unhindered by baggage, what might be interpreted as the weight of sin and worldliness.

[12th Doctor]

Do you not have any "mega" churches in your corner of PA?  We've got a handfull here and the parking lots are full of BMW's, giant SUV's, and hundreds of other new cars.

I don't know, maybe I shouldn't judge.  But I know it certainly sets a horrible example for other Christians to follow and non-Christians to see.

Of course you are going to have exceptions.  But keep in mind that there are alot of people who buy those thing living totally out of their means.  Also, a car has to be new before it can be old.  If everyone started driving only used cars, there wouldn't be any cars at all, eventually.

BTW... not to paint with too broad a brush, but its been my experience that mega-churches are generally packed with social climbing hypocrites who love the "protestant work ethic" only because they use it as a means to justify their wealth... not because it means they actually like to work.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

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So, do you got two coats?  How do you couch that with the above verse and all the other parts of the Bible where Jesus tells you to give up all you don't absolutly need.  How do preachers driving Caddy's sleep at night knowing there are kids going to bed hungry in their same town?

(sorry if we've done this before)

What John the Baptist said was correct:  give to the needy out of your excess of basis necessities (food, clothing and shelter) to help them in their basic necessities of life.  That doesn’t mean you have to buy a poor person a Wii, a Wii isn’t a basic necessity.

The early church shared their possessions among believers, but they still retained ownership of their own homes.  They gave not out of obligation but out of love.  But they were selective in whom they helped, they didn’t help the lazy, but they did help those who simply could not provide for themselves.

You see the same thing today:  social conservatives Christians give more to charity than social liberals who want to raise everyone’s taxes.  Though that is not saying they couldn’t give more.

And >98% of pastors are barely squeaking by as they shepherd small churches.   But most of Christian televangelists (e.g. TBN) are simply scam artists who attempt to sell the favor of God for money.

[dead0man]

..and Jesus was anointed with very expensive oil and when He was called on it, He said that there will always be poor people, we can help them whenever we want, but you won't always have an oppurtunity to poor expensive oil's on Christ's head.

But it seems we all agree rich Christians are going to hell (especially the rich clergy), but most Christians are dirt poor and just scraping by themselves, so I guess I was wrong.  Thank you.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

But it seems we all agree rich Christians are going to hell

there are many biblical examples of rich godly men, so I wouldn't say rich Christians are going to hell, though I think it can be said that, on average, the rich have a harder time dedicating theirselves to the Lord.

[JSojourner]

You must be logged in to read this quote.

So, do you got two coats?  How do you couch that with the above verse and all the other parts of the Bible where Jesus tells you to give up all you don't absolutly need.  How do preachers driving Caddy's sleep at night knowing there are kids going to bed hungry in their same town?

(sorry if we've done this before)

social conservatives Christians give more to charity than social liberals. 

Proof? Source?

[Alcon]

Proof? Source?

Churchgoing increases your charitable giving significantly - he's right.  I'm too lazy to find the sources, but there have been several.

[JSojourner]

Proof? Source?

Churchgoing increases your charitable giving significantly - he's right.  I'm too lazy to find the sources, but there have been several.

No, no -- he said CONSERVATIVE Christians give more than liberals.  Did he mean liberals in general or liberal Christians?  There are tens of millions of churchgoing Christians in this country who are not conservative.  I'd like to see some evidence that they are less charitable than their conservative brethren.

Too, I think you have to be VERY careful when you talk about charitable donations.  Where is the money going?  If I write a check for $500.00 to James Dobson so he can further his political agenda, is that factored into what Jmcfst is talking about? Conservative Christians give millions to radio and tv preachers.  It may be they do good work with the money.  Billy Graham sure does.  But it may also be they use the money to finance political crusades and keep themselves in the lap of luxury. 

[Alcon]

Proof? Source?

Churchgoing increases your charitable giving significantly - he's right.  I'm too lazy to find the sources, but there have been several.

No, no -- he said CONSERVATIVE Christians give more than liberals.  Did he mean liberals in general or liberal Christians?  There are tens of millions of churchgoing Christians in this country who are not conservative.  I'd like to see some evidence that they are less charitable than their conservative brethren.

Too, I think you have to be VERY careful when you talk about charitable donations.  Where is the money going?  If I write a check for $500.00 to James Dobson so he can further his political agenda, is that factored into what Jmcfst is talking about? Conservative Christians give millions to radio and tv preachers.  It may be they do good work with the money.  Billy Graham sure does.  But it may also be they use the money to finance political crusades and keep themselves in the lap of luxury. 

Assuming churches are considered charity, and Mormon tithe is, it's really no contest.  Fundies, southern chruchgoers, give a ton of their money relative to income.  I don't think there's much chance that it's not more than liberal Christians.

I'm not sure what that proves, though.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

social conservatives Christians give more to charity than social liberals. 

Proof? Source?

google it, or read any of the many number of philanthropy studies.  Religious conservatives give more to charity than any other group, even when gifts to religious institutions are excluded.  Religious conservatives are also more likely to do volunteer work for secular organizations, more likely to support the PTA, and even more likely to give blood.

The order of giving goes like this, from greatest charity giving to least:
1st place) religious conservatives
close 2nd) religious liberals
very distant 3rd, not even close to 2nd) secular liberals
4th, close to 3rd) secular conservatives

basically, you can closely recreate the 2004 Bush-Kerry map simply by ranking the states by % of income given to charity:  of the 31 states Bush won in 2004, only 3 are not in the top 31 givers.  And of the top 28 states, Bush won all of them.

And secular conservative New Hampshire, which voted for Kerry in 2004 but Bush in 2000, ranked next to last in giving.

[12th Doctor]

Proof? Source?

Churchgoing increases your charitable giving significantly - he's right.  I'm too lazy to find the sources, but there have been several.

No, no -- he said CONSERVATIVE Christians give more than liberals.  Did he mean liberals in general or liberal Christians?  There are tens of millions of churchgoing Christians in this country who are not conservative.  I'd like to see some evidence that they are less charitable than their conservative brethren.

Too, I think you have to be VERY careful when you talk about charitable donations.  Where is the money going?  If I write a check for $500.00 to James Dobson so he can further his political agenda, is that factored into what Jmcfst is talking about? Conservative Christians give millions to radio and tv preachers.  It may be they do good work with the money.  Billy Graham sure does.  But it may also be they use the money to finance political crusades and keep themselves in the lap of luxury. 

There have been several studies done which show that socially conservative and often times poorer US state give more than Blue states... again... its pretty well know and like Alcon... I'm too lazy to look for it.

BTW... being socially conservative means you are generally more likely to go to Church.

[DWPerry]

That is one of my problems with most "mega-churches", the "preachers" are in it for the money, they are super rich, but even Yeshua (Jesus) was a poor man, and even said, "Bird's have nests and foxes have dens, yet the son of man has no place to lay is head", which leads me to believe that he was actually homeless.
I'll admit that I probbaly own more than I need, but am by no means a rich/wealthy/well-off person.

[JSojourner]

Well, from what I can see -- Jmcfst is probably right.  Though most of the independent studies show the gap in giving between religious conservatives and religious liberals is razor thin.  And it doesn't take into account donations to 501-C3's for the purpose of proselytizing.  I'm also just a tad skeptical of Arthur Brooks' findings in this regard, but I'll give him the benefit of the doubt.  If Brooks is right about anything, it's that liberals are wrong to discount or marginalize religion in general and Christianity, specifically.  I'd completely agree with him on that.

But Brooks compares apples to oranges when he lines up Christian conservatives or, what he calls, "The religious right" with the secular left.  How do charitable donations compare between secular conservatives and secular liberals would be more logical.  Comparing charitable donations of Christian conservatives and Christians liberals would then be more apt.  But that comparison wouldn't draw much of a distinction.  In both cases, levels of charitable giving are almost the same.

No question though -- we can ALL do more.  And we should.  I, for one, have absolutely no doubt about the generosity of conservatives as well as liberals.  And frankly, it may be the basis for unity between our two ideological camps.  We may never agree on gun control, for example. But I wonder -- could a liberal and a conservative come together in raising funds for an organization that provides counseling and assistance to crime victims and their families?  I think the answer is, "yes".