what if hillary said....

[WalterMitty]

...<insert name> is a typical black person.

how would the media have played that?

im still waiting for a jounalists (are there any of those left these days) to ask obama to explain to us (us being the unenlightened crowd) what a 'typical white person' is. 

[Aizen]

waltermitty what are you doing

[WalterMitty]

waltermitty what are you doing

asking a legitimate question.

obama tells us all the time that he is going to bring us together.

i find it hard to believe you can bring people together by saying stuff like 'typical white person'

i heard that 'typical gay people' like home decorating.

[exopolitician]

waltermitty what are you doing

asking a legitimate question.

obama tells us all the time that he is going to bring us together.

i find it hard to believe you can bring people together by saying stuff like 'typical white person'

i heard that 'typical gay people' like home decorating.

I dont mind it honestly...but...

[MODU]

Mitty does have a bit of a point, but it would depend on what context it was used in.  "___ is a typical black person who believes the government should provide for him..." might go over better than "____ is a typical black person who is into drugs..."

However, both comments would get you slammed by the press.

[Keystone Phil]

I love the lack of attention from Obama supporters.

I brought this up before, too. I guarantee that there would be strong, persistent calls for her to drop out.

[bullmoose88]

I love the lack of attention from Obama supporters.

I brought this up before, too. I guarantee that there would be strong, persistent calls for her to drop out.

I'll take a page out of Opebo's playbook simply because it *may* be relevant.

Its one thing for historically and socio-economically disadvantaged group to vent at the group that has enjoyed the most success and has the most advantages.  Its petulant and perhaps annoying yes, but relatively speaking its not as bad as the reverse situation the superior using a poor stereotype for the weaker.

We cut the underdog a bit of slack, as we should.  It doesn't make Obama's typical white person stereotype right (although I suspect there's some truth in it, though it could have been put better).  But there's really no excuse for the reverse to occur.

For what its worth.

[Beet]

Everyone has been getting too offended in the primary cycle.

The Obama supporters discovered early on that false outrage and petulance and get you a long way because it reinforces Hillary's negatives. Thus whenever anything comes out of her mouth or the mouth of anyone in any way associated with her campaign that could possibly be construed as offensive, she's the next Grand Wizard of the KKK.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Its one thing for historically and socio-economically disadvantaged group to vent at the group that has enjoyed the most success and has the most advantages.

But Obama isn't actually part of that group, save by choice.

[Keystone Phil]

I love the lack of attention from Obama supporters.

I brought this up before, too. I guarantee that there would be strong, persistent calls for her to drop out.

I'll take a page out of Opebo's playbook simply because it *may* be relevant.

Its one thing for historically and socio-economically disadvantaged group to vent at the group that has enjoyed the most success and has the most advantages.  Its petulant and perhaps annoying yes, but relatively speaking its not as bad as the reverse situation the superior using a poor stereotype for the weaker.

We cut the underdog a bit of slack, as we should.  It doesn't make Obama's typical white person stereotype right (although I suspect there's some truth in it, though it could have been put better).  But there's really no excuse for the reverse to occur.

For what its worth.

"The underdog." Wow. So much for moving towards that true racial equality!

As long as we keep excusing one group from everything, we're never going to reach the point that people say they want to reach. "Oh, it's ok. You can say that. You're the underdog. Keep beating up on the bad white man."

Oh, and don't excuse stereotypes for Obama with saying, "Well, it might be true." Again, I can't say that some stereotypes about blacks are true, right?

[Fmr. Pres. Duke]

Because the media is fainting over Obama and are trying their best to downplay this scandal.

Of course, if McCain's pastor had made white supremacy remarks or McCain referred to Obama as being a typical black person, the media would crucify him and the Dems would be looking at a landslide in November. The Obama fanboys would be all over all the Republicans for being racists.

Even though the Dems play the race card all the time, it is still the Republicans that are known for hating minorities. That's just the way the political landscape is.

mitty, you won't get a legit answer around here. You're being a racist for questioning Obama. He was just being a typical black person by assuming they know what we white people think.

[bullmoose88]

Its one thing for historically and socio-economically disadvantaged group to vent at the group that has enjoyed the most success and has the most advantages.

But Obama isn't actually part of that group, save by choice.

That's a fair criticism, however, its probably more accurate to say he's a member of both groups, enjoying the pluses and minuses of each.  

But one thing for sure, whatever group Obama's in (and whether he speaks for the african american community or not, and by choice or not), Hillary's coming from a position of socio-economic, cultural, and historical dominance (well almost, since she's a woman), and such a comment would be completely inexcusable, whereas there *might* be an excuse for Obama.

[bullmoose88]

I love the lack of attention from Obama supporters.

I brought this up before, too. I guarantee that there would be strong, persistent calls for her to drop out.

I'll take a page out of Opebo's playbook simply because it *may* be relevant.

Its one thing for historically and socio-economically disadvantaged group to vent at the group that has enjoyed the most success and has the most advantages.  Its petulant and perhaps annoying yes, but relatively speaking its not as bad as the reverse situation the superior using a poor stereotype for the weaker.

We cut the underdog a bit of slack, as we should.  It doesn't make Obama's typical white person stereotype right (although I suspect there's some truth in it, though it could have been put better).  But there's really no excuse for the reverse to occur.

For what its worth.

"The underdog." Wow. So much for moving towards that true racial equality!

As long as we keep excusing one group from everything, we're never going to reach the point that people say they want to reach. "Oh, it's ok. You can say that. You're the underdog. Keep beating up on the bad white man."

Oh, and don't excuse stereotypes for Obama with saying, "Well, it might be true." Again, I can't say that some stereotypes about blacks are true, right?

I understand that line of thought, but for a group that's been so trampled on in our history and now, surely some indulgence has to be made when its them and not us who are out of line, considering how often its been the reverse.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

That's a fair criticism, however, its probably more accurate to say he's a member of both groups, enjoying the pluses and minuses of each. 

Nonsense. If he was actually "black" (ie; a descendant of slaves) he would not be in the position that he is today. Ugly but true.

[Keystone Phil]

I love the lack of attention from Obama supporters.

I brought this up before, too. I guarantee that there would be strong, persistent calls for her to drop out.

I'll take a page out of Opebo's playbook simply because it *may* be relevant.

Its one thing for historically and socio-economically disadvantaged group to vent at the group that has enjoyed the most success and has the most advantages.  Its petulant and perhaps annoying yes, but relatively speaking its not as bad as the reverse situation the superior using a poor stereotype for the weaker.

We cut the underdog a bit of slack, as we should.  It doesn't make Obama's typical white person stereotype right (although I suspect there's some truth in it, though it could have been put better).  But there's really no excuse for the reverse to occur.

For what its worth.

"The underdog." Wow. So much for moving towards that true racial equality!

As long as we keep excusing one group from everything, we're never going to reach the point that people say they want to reach. "Oh, it's ok. You can say that. You're the underdog. Keep beating up on the bad white man."

Oh, and don't excuse stereotypes for Obama with saying, "Well, it might be true." Again, I can't say that some stereotypes about blacks are true, right?

I understand that line of thought, but for a group that's been so trampled on in our history and now, surely some indulgence has to be made when its them and not us who are out of line, considering how often its been the reverse.

So they'll complain and get away with their mistakes because they're "the underdog" for how long? What period of time will "make up" for what was done to them? A hundred years? Two hundred? Then what? When do we move towards racial equality?

I won't excuse Obama's stereotypes just as he wouldn't excuse mine. Remember, Obama was a vocal critic of the nappy headed 'ho stereotype...

[bullmoose88]

That's a fair criticism, however, its probably more accurate to say he's a member of both groups, enjoying the pluses and minuses of each. 

Nonsense. If he was actually "black" (ie; a descendant of slaves) he would not be in the position that he is today. Ugly but true.

But you wouldn't disagree that he has faced some additional discrimination (more than the average white person) because of his color and background.

[bullmoose88]

So they'll complain and get away with their mistakes because they're "the underdog" for how long? What period of time will "make up" for what was done to them? A hundred years? Two hundred? Then what? When do we move towards racial equality?

I won't excuse Obama's stereotypes just as he wouldn't excuse mine. Remember, Obama was a vocal critic of the nappy headed 'ho stereotype...

Has Obama gotten away with a mistake? I seem to recall him losing some support poll wise and has had to repudiate those remarks.  Its not like he's gotten away scot free.

But to say he and Hillary should face the exact same outcome for comparable remarks just isn't realistic.

You don't grant a blank check for "their" mistakes, but when it happens, you take it into account as a mitigating factor.  There simply isn't a mitigating factor for Hillary.

[Keystone Phil]

Has Obama gotten away with a mistake? I seem to recall him losing some support poll wise and has had to repudiate those remarks.  Its not like he's gotten away scot free.

The point is that it isn't the firestorm it would have been if the white woman said it.

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It's sadly not realistic because the same people who preach about racial equality are simply hypocrites and opportunists.

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"Blame the white man but give the black a pass" isn't the path the racial equality, moose. I know you enjoy finding reasons why it's not as bad for Obama to say what he said but if you want to take that route, don't complain about the need for real equality.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

That's a fair criticism, however, its probably more accurate to say he's a member of both groups, enjoying the pluses and minuses of each. 

Nonsense. If he was actually "black" (ie; a descendant of slaves) he would not be in the position that he is today. Ugly but true.

But you wouldn't disagree that he has faced some additional discrimination (more than the average white person) because of his color and background.

I don't know because I'm not especially familiar with the details of his life (and, frankly, don't want to be). But in theory he would have done (though more for colour than background). But I'm not sure what that has to do with your main point.

[angus]

ask obama to explain to us (us being the unenlightened crowd) what a 'typical white person' is. 

wouldn't that be rather like waiting for a plumber to explain to you what a typical carpenter is?  Just kidding.  Actually, Obama is pretty well positioned to make the comment.

But if I want somebody to explain what a typical white people is, then I ask a typical white people.  Take me, for instance, I'm a fairly typical white people.  My dick is medium-sized, at best.  I've never ordered grits.  I don't go to church.  And the few times I did go to church, I saw people crossing themselves and genuflecting and kneeling to pray, but I didn't see them singing like they mean it, or swaying to and fro like they felt anything.  And when I fancy a golden carbonated alcoholic beverage, I go for ale or lager, as opposed to Malt Liquor.  And I have a full-time job.  So I'd say I qualify as a typical white person.

Now, a typical white person doesn't usually realize he or she is a typical white person, unless of course he or she lives in Detroit or Mississippi or Washington, DC.  If you have lived in any of those places, then you have no doubt been surrounded by folks who are neither white nor, in your probable estimation, typical.  In that case you may come to get an inkling of the fact that you're white.  But if you're in Iowa or Connecticut or Wyoming, chances are that you forget you're white, and probably typically so.  You remember you're a white person if you have a basis of comparison.  For example, you might only remember that you're typically white because you live among non-white people.  Since I live with non-white people--namely one-and-a-half chinese people--I am reminded of what typical white people (me) are like.  I also have the distinct pleasure of being reminded daily of what typical chinese people are like.  Don't get me started.  Ah, but that's another story.

Anyway, Obama may be one of those rare individuals who can actually know what typical white people and typical non-white people are like by virtue of his intimacy with both typical white people and typical non-white people.  It's a rare experience, I'm sure.  Even in the USA, where it's probably not as rare as it would be outside the USA, it's still a rare experience.

So the now-infamous quote in question is "The point I was making was not that my grandmother harbors any racial animosity. She doesn't. But she is a typical white person who, uh, if she sees somebody on the street that she doesn't know there's a reaction that's been been bred into our experiences that don't go away and that sometimes come out in the wrong way and that's just the nature of race in our society. We have to break through it..."

Seems reasonable on some level.  Obviously he has never lived with folks from the far east, as I can assure you that every East Asian I have ever known--and I've known my share--are much quicker to cross the street upon approaching a negro than most of the white folks I know.  In fact, I'm probably guilty of saying it's a "typical asian" reaction to cross the street when a black person approaches.  But I'm also cognizant of the fact that it is equally "typically asian" not to think that this is a bad idea.  Point out to a chinese person that he or she crosses the street when a black man approaches, and he or she will look at you as if you're daft.  As if to say, "of course I cross the street when a black man approaches?  don't you?  if not, then you're the moron.  not me."  All of this is true, Walter.  But as a white man--dare I say "typical white man"--you have somehow been trained to think, "Um, this huge n with coming at me looks scary.  But if I cross the street I'll either look like a pussy or a bigot.  So I'm not going to cross the street.  I'd rather be a dead but honorable egalitarian than a living pussy or bigot."  So you don't cross the street.  That, in and of itself, harms no one except possibly you.  But you seem to take it up a notch.  As if you want to be prototypically white.  So you go out and buy a nice computer, get yourself a high-speed internet connection, become a member of a political chat-room, and then demand that other white people engage in your groupthink and start hounding the black candidate for not being "sensitive" enough.

Seriously walter, how white is that?  And you really think you need to ask Barack what a typical white person is? 

[bullmoose88]

Has Obama gotten away with a mistake? I seem to recall him losing some support poll wise and has had to repudiate those remarks.  Its not like he's gotten away scot free.

The point is that it isn't the firestorm it would have been if the white woman said it.

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It's sadly not realistic because the same people who preach about racial equality are simply hypocrites and opportunists.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

"Blame the white man but give the black a pass" isn't the path the racial equality, moose. I know you enjoy finding reasons why it's not as bad for Obama to say what he said but if you want to take that route, don't complain about the need for real equality.

You fail to understand that it isn't a free pass, Phil. Obama's getting flak for it. Is he getting less flak than if Hillary said something similar? Of course.  Obama has a mitigating factor, Hillary doesn't.

The two persons aren't equal to begin with, so its unreasonable to expect an equal outcome.

I realize you live in a color blind fantasyland where the last 2 plus centuries of inequality have faded into Myth and everyone's on equal footing except for what they have made themselves.

But to say that someone from the minority position (even if, as Al points out, he may be there from choice) should get the same exact treatment as someone from the advantageous position is silly.  The person from the disadvantageous position should have that position taken into account.  Perhaps, as Al's point (if I take it correctly) seemed to say, Obama shouldn't get the free pass (since he hasn't really experienced the same hardship as those african americans who came over via triangle trade), but to say blame the white man let the black man get a free pass is disingenuous.  

The African Americans remarks could be attributed to anger for being put down for a very very long time.  Its disgusting yes, I don't suppose to guess how one would react in that situation, but I don't see the notion of cutting just a little bit of slack (now this is different than saying, no negative outcome at all, or it didn't happen) as being unreasonable.

What mitigating factors would someone from Hillary's position (privledged caucusian) have?

[bullmoose88]

That's a fair criticism, however, its probably more accurate to say he's a member of both groups, enjoying the pluses and minuses of each. 

Nonsense. If he was actually "black" (ie; a descendant of slaves) he would not be in the position that he is today. Ugly but true.

But you wouldn't disagree that he has faced some additional discrimination (more than the average white person) because of his color and background.

I don't know because I'm not especially familiar with the details of his life (and, frankly, don't want to be). But in theory he would have done (though more for colour than background). But I'm not sure what that has to do with your main point.

I'll conceed the point.  All I'm saying is, Obama may have a mitigating factor for his remarks, while Hillary does not.  The two persons aren't comparable to begin with to even begin contemplating an even punishment.

[Edit: I'll admit I've gotten some points crossed between your and Phil's broader argument.]

[angus]

Jeezus.  I'm sorry, but I have to continue.  And not just because you're such an easy target.  But because you guys just can't give the man a break.  It's always black this and black that.  Like he's not a person but a demographic.  I never heard anyone ask Reagan or Clinton what being a white guy was like.  Or constantly ask them about race relations.  If you don't like the guy because of his positions, that's one thing.  No one attacks the many (usually) Republican posters who think he's too "liberal" to be president, and that's because it seems reasonable to do so--although I think it's a misguided opinion.  But you seem to have bought into the media hype that he deserves special criticism because he's black.  Or that he must somehow answer questions which would not be directed at Clinton or Reagan or Bush.  Talk about a double standard.  Of course he's getting a little tired of the scrutiny.  Of course it's fatiguing him.  So maybe he slips in a little "typical" adjective and all of the sudden he's persona non-grata.  That's "gotcha" politics.  Set him up, then watch him fall.

It's petty, Walter.  If you disagree with him because of his positions, then I have no criticism of you, but it seems otherwise.  The fact that he's black is not, in my book, sufficient reason to treat him any differently than any other candidate.  And you're not alone.  Apparently every talking head on the airwaves agrees with you.  But it's getting old.  I hope people are starting to notice the double standard.  I hope they either vote for him or against based on whether they think he'll be the best man for the job, mind you, and not out of sympathy for the mistreatment, but I do hope folks start to notice the special scrutiny he's receiving.

Ah, well.  Now that I think about it...  In all fairness, Clinton was being scrutinized harder than he a few weeks back, and folks took notice.  But instead of correcting course by becoming neutral, the press seems to have "corrected course" by skewing him instead.  So I guess it's just par for the course.  These guys have one job to do:  sell ad space.  But you don't have to buy into it.  That's all I'm saying.  If somebody were scrutinizing you so closely and hoping you'd fuçk up once in a while, well, probably you'd fuçk up once in a while.  And by fuçk up once in a while I mean say something that is just out of range of what the thought police consider verbally acceptable.  Actually, every time a man pisses off the thought police he gains my approval, so it's not a bad thing, really.  Keep the political incorrectness coming, Barack, old boy.  (oops, I called a black presidential candidate "boy"  Please don't report me to the gestapo.)

Okay, I feel better.  That was very cathartic.  Thanks for the opportunity to rant. 

[Keystone Phil]

You fail to understand that it isn't a free pass, Phil. Obama's getting flak for it. Is he getting less flak than if Hillary said something similar? Of course.  Obama has a mitigating factor, Hillary doesn't.

Your argument about there being a "mitigating factor" is enough of a free pass for me.

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I am in no way saying that or believe that. I'm simply fighting the hypocrites that want to talk about us all moving forward together towards racial equality (people like yourself, I'm sure) and then make an excuse everytime a black person does something like this.

By the way, I don't want to live in a color blind society. I want to live in a society where we embrace our differences.

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It's unreasonable because there has to be a time when enough is enough. You still didn't answer my question: when will enough time pass so that we don't have to excuse people when they do this? When will minorities reach the point where they've gotten their "revenge" for being put down? When do we move forward? We are constantly told that this must be done and yet everytime someone of the "unpriveledged" status slips up, there is an excuse. When does that end or will the finger pointing go on forever? If it is never ending, don't lecture us of the "priveledged" position about not making advances in race affairs. Thanks.

[TomC]

what if hillary said... I was mugged by Barack Obama, who may or may not have sold drugs in the ghetto, and may or may not be a Muslim, but will likely match the results of Jesse Jackson when he ran, and who will shuck and jive at his news conferences because he is where and what he is because he's black. But for the record, I hadn't really noticed that his skin is different; didn't he try to pass as white on SNL? Why hasn't the media gotten to the bottom of this?