Was Vatican II Really Good for the Church (user search)
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  Was Vatican II Really Good for the Church (search mode)
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Author Topic: Was Vatican II Really Good for the Church  (Read 4640 times)
12th Doctor
supersoulty
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« on: March 26, 2008, 07:00:02 PM »

Who would dare challenge that Vatican II has been anything but a huge success for the Catholic Church?  I mean, after all, more people would have to come once the priests stopped ranting away in an language that no one understands, doing things that have no meaning to the parishioners.  The new "Buddy Catholicism" surely lifted the Church above the errors of its medieval ways and made it more appealing to all... if only.

Let's look at some stats, shall we:

In 1965... the year Vatican II was enacted... there were 58,000 priests in the US (the figures are even worse in other parts of the former Catholic world, BTW).  Today, there are only 45,000, 16% of whom are immigrants.

In 1965, 1,575 priests were ordained in the US.  Today, only 450.

In 1965, there were 49,000 seminarians.  Today, there are only 4,700 across the country... an over 90% drop!

Weekly mass attendance was 75% in 1958.  Today its less than 25%.

In 1968, there were 338 annulments.  Today, over 50,000.

So... conventional wisdom rarely being wisdom at all, one can clearly see that something has gone terribly wrong.
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12th Doctor
supersoulty
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Posts: 20,584
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« Reply #1 on: March 26, 2008, 07:01:12 PM »

BTW... all the "today" figures are from 2002, back when we had one of the most charismatic and popular popes in history, so you can't blame it on the current regime.
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12th Doctor
supersoulty
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« Reply #2 on: March 26, 2008, 10:17:17 PM »

These numbers would be twice as bad if it weren't for Vatican II.

The numbers for many mainline Protestant denominations are far worse, and they liberalized more than the Church did.
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12th Doctor
supersoulty
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« Reply #3 on: March 26, 2008, 10:27:38 PM »

I don't think Vatican II has as much to do with those declining numbers as other factors; of course, I feel that John XXIII was probably one of the three or four greatest Popes of all time, and I'm not Catholic, but that's what I think.

VII - virtually "protestanised" the Church.

Take it the other way, if the Church hadn't modernised, and the priests were still the mysterious "intermediary" - would the numbers be any better?

My father was an altar-boy and a good catholic boy, learning latin and all.... but stopped once VII happened... if he couldn't use the latin. What's the point?

I have no problem with a number of the edicts of Vatican II, however I would argue that Vatican II has clearly established a new culture in the Church that has been detrimental in many way.

First off, most of the changes that came from Vatican II, in terms of how the Church relates, officially to society and other Christian and non-Christian sects had been de facto the way things were for a while until that point.  So those "changes" weren't really all that necessary.

Secondly, (getting to Polnut's point) in terms of how the faith is actually practiced, I think it has had detrimental consequences.  Forget conducting the spiritual rites in Latin... certainly that was disposable.  However, the way things were conducted, the meaning that had been built up in the mass over every little thing that was done suddenly had no meaning.  And if those things are changeable and easily disposed of, then what prevents the wider things from being so easily subject to the winds of change.

People are demanding another council so that the Church can readjust to the world, even today, only 40 years after the last council.  People have come to assume that things can change whenever we want, for whatever reason, because society demands it to be that way.

I think these problems listed above, while not a direct result of Vatican II, do stem from the culture that emerged afterwards.
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