What is the difference between liberal and "progressive"? (user search)
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  What is the difference between liberal and "progressive"? (search mode)
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Author Topic: What is the difference between liberal and "progressive"?  (Read 8860 times)
Tetro Kornbluth
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« on: May 24, 2008, 05:37:28 PM »

In Europe, "liberal" means something akin to "libertarian." In America, it means "atheist homosexual, terrorist-sympathizing, Christ-hating, flag-burning, body-piercing, snooty, elitist, adulterous French Communist who will eat your children, take all your money, and force you to move out of your home to create a habitat for spotted owls." When I was growing up, I thought liberal was a pejorative because I never heard it used any other way. Progressive has far less negative connotations.

<Insert the "I don't see the Negative connotations" line here>

Yeah, basically the two words have basically came around to meaning the same thing. Except I suspect that Obama supporters are more likely to use the word "progressive" than Clinton's are (just a hunch, maybe wrong).

No word in the past 250 years have changed its meaning more times than the word "liberal". At first it originally meant a kind of libertarian rationalist (which should not at all confused with modern libertarianism, which is an irrational cult.)
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Tetro Kornbluth
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« Reply #1 on: May 25, 2008, 04:24:32 PM »

When I think of liberal I think of classical liberalism to which much of personal beliefs are based upon.  To call a leftist a "liberal" to me though is an egregious misappropriation of the term.  Thus the correct definition is quite different from a so-called "progressive" which is another euphemism for a socialist.


I agree with the first part, that the word "liberal" means something different then most people think.

But you should learn more about what socialism is.

They should also find out alot about what "Classical Liberalism" is too. (Hint it does not = libertarian in the US context)
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Tetro Kornbluth
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« Reply #2 on: May 27, 2008, 09:06:41 AM »

When I think of liberal I think of classical liberalism to which much of personal beliefs are based upon.  To call a leftist a "liberal" to me though is an egregious misappropriation of the term.  Thus the correct definition is quite different from a so-called "progressive" which is another euphemism for a socialist.


Kind of like conservatism is a euphemism for fascist.  As long as we're defining the other side.

No since fascism is simply a nationalist socialism. That is why most historical fascists were socialists before having differences about the role of one's national origin in their political identity.

Utter, Utter, Utter Horse manure. Most fascists were aristocrats or neo-feudalists. Very few were ever socialists, who they identified with as 'the enemy'.

Or to quote https://uselectionatlas.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=75370.msg1555523#msg1555523 again:
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I should have also pointed out in most countries, the fascists greatest supporters came from the traditional elite. Hell, in Germany they were the reason they took power in the first place - preferring to deal with them rather than the even the palest pink Social Democrat.

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Marxist Traditionalism states that that is Communism. Socialism is when the means of production is left in the hands of "the dictatorship of the proletariat" - an over dramatic phrase invented by Auguste Blanqui to describe, I suppose, a military workers democracy. Not too dissimiliar to the Sancullottes of the French Revolution. The USSR was called the Union of Soviet Socialist republics - believing that it was in the transitional path between Capitalism and pure communism where the state would eventually 'wither away' (this being 'official' ideology o/c) after a certain period of time.

However Theory and reality are two very different things. It is worth pointing out however that pre-1917 the Leninist view was very much a minority among socialists (ie. that an intellectual elite is needed to lead the workers to revolution).
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Tetro Kornbluth
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« Reply #3 on: May 28, 2008, 07:48:04 AM »

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Ummmm... I never did. Mussolini may have been a socialist, though he very much later disclaimed that ideology and most of his supporters were very firm anti-socialist before WWI and this was true for nearly all fascist movements (with the possible exception of Romania where the Iron Guard supporters tended to be working class and to lesser extent, the Hungarian Arrow Cross but that might be due to all anti-Horthyist parties being outlawed or put into mild mannered acceptance) After Mussolini every other fascist movement saw socialists of all varieties as their number one enemy.

I have never once claimed that Socialist nor Fascism could not be linked, indeed proto-ideologies linking the two existed before WWI (The Eugenics of HG Wells' and others comes to mind) and both ideologies fundamentally against the arbitrary liberal capitalism that existed prior to 1914 and which has seen to have been responsible for the war post-1918 (this view acclerated after the Great Depression). And there is no doubt that fascism borrowed alot for communism in its rhetoric and in its messianic nature (IIRC Hitler made 1st May a bank Holiday when arriving into power). However both ideologies were different in their intellectual origins and their ideological purpose, as seen above*. I am merely disputing the fascism=left because it meant a big government hypothesis.

* - (Though of course when talking about the USSR, et al you have a point. But in most of Western Europe and the rest of the 1st world pro-soviets tended to make up a minority of socialists, only in Germany did they really have a shot at actual power. Not even in Italy, unless you count an increase in street fighting as a revolutionary concern.)
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