Unions:we've killed industry in this country, up next small cities!

[dead0man]

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(the thread title is half joke as they only half killed our industry)

[cannonia]

Vallejo never recovered from Mare Island closing down.  Other than Marine World, I can't think of a reason ever to go to Vallejo.

[Bluegrass Cruiser 420]

Hey you anti-union scab don't you know that employees own the job and not their employers and that they are entitled to certain level of wages and benefits guaranteed by government.  (the preceding phrase is dripping with sarcasm).

[Sam Spade]

I'm not exactly familiar with Chapter 9 bankruptcies (they are quite rare), so I can't speak to how strong the union's chances are in getting the city's case tossed (I'll do more research actually).  But under the facts as I've read them and taking into account what courts typically do in other bankruptcies, I suspect the unions will have to come to the table and the case won't be tossed.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

A chapter 9 bankruptcy is a specialized version of chapter 11 for municipalities.  The differences are generally less favorable for creditors because the bankruptcy courts have less say over the assets and spending of the debtor than they do in chapter 11.

[Sam Spade]

A chapter 9 bankruptcy is a specialized version of chapter 11 for municipalities.  The differences are generally less favorable for creditors because the bankruptcy courts have less say over the assets and spending of the debtor than they do in chapter 11.

So, in other words, the unions are going to have to deal.

[Хahar 🤔]

Vallejo never recovered from Mare Island closing down.  Other than Marine World, I can't think of a reason ever to go to Vallejo.

Yep; I think it's due to a lack of good branding more than anything else.

BTW, wasn't this on KCBS a month ago?

[opebo]

What garbage.  Unions never killed any industry - even without unions the cost of living in the US means you have to pay your workers $10-15/hour or they will die and not return to work.  In the more slave-labour countries the wage is maybe $1/hour at most.  There is no way unions had any effect on the destruction of industry in america other than perhaps angering the powerful owners who resent any minute infringement on their power.

Basically what you libertarians are saying is that we must accept a $1/hour lifestyle or we are 'destroying industry', completely ignoring the fact that the owners are the ones making all the decisions.  Can't you people see that only owners have power in the US?  Why do you think this should be the absolute and only way to do things?  You just accept enslavement without the slightest intellectual questioning.

[cannonia]

Vallejo never recovered from Mare Island closing down.  Other than Marine World, I can't think of a reason ever to go to Vallejo.

Yep; I think it's due to a lack of good branding more than anything else.

BTW, wasn't this on KCBS a month ago?

I think that was when they were just talking about going bankrupt.  Now I guess they've actually filed for bankruptcy.

Interesting statistic: 70% of the city's budget goes to "police and firefighting salaries, pensions and overtime."  The normal for California cities is 60%.  That's surprising high (at least to me).

[dead0man]

What garbage.  Unions never killed any industry - even without unions the cost of living in the US means you have to pay your workers $10-15/hour or they will die and not return to work.  In the more slave-labour countries the wage is maybe $1/hour at most.  There is no way unions had any effect on the destruction of industry in america other than perhaps angering the powerful owners who resent any minute infringement on their power.

Basically what you libertarians are saying is that we must accept a $1/hour lifestyle or we are 'destroying industry', completely ignoring the fact that the owners are the ones making all the decisions.  Can't you people see that only owners have power in the US?  Why do you think this should be the absolute and only way to do things?  You just accept enslavement without the slightest intellectual questioning.

It's so awesome when you show how litle you know.  It keeps the time I need to invest in responding low.  Thank you.

[Bluegrass Cruiser 420]

What garbage.  Unions never killed any industry - even without unions the cost of living in the US means you have to pay your workers $10-15/hour or they will die and not return to work.  In the more slave-labour countries the wage is maybe $1/hour at most.  There is no way unions had any effect on the destruction of industry in america other than perhaps angering the powerful owners who resent any minute infringement on their power.

Basically what you libertarians are saying is that we must accept a $1/hour lifestyle or we are 'destroying industry', completely ignoring the fact that the owners are the ones making all the decisions.  Can't you people see that only owners have power in the US?  Why do you think this should be the absolute and only way to do things?  You just accept enslavement without the slightest intellectual questioning.

yes keep perpetuating that myth so we sheeple will depend on government to keep us employed and happy (they do just such a wonderful job)..  Man you just have no understanding economics do you?

[Ban my account ffs!]

What garbage.  Unions never killed any industry - even without unions the cost of living in the US means you have to pay your workers $10-15/hour or they will die and not return to work.  In the more slave-labour countries the wage is maybe $1/hour at most.  There is no way unions had any effect on the destruction of industry in america other than perhaps angering the powerful owners who resent any minute infringement on their power.

Basically what you libertarians are saying is that we must accept a $1/hour lifestyle or we are 'destroying industry', completely ignoring the fact that the owners are the ones making all the decisions.  Can't you people see that only owners have power in the US?  Why do you think this should be the absolute and only way to do things?  You just accept enslavement without the slightest intellectual questioning.

yes keep perpetuating that myth so we sheeple will depend on government to keep us employed and happy (they do just such a wonderful job)..  Man you just have no understanding economics do you?

How is it that unions=depending on government for a job?

I've always understood unions to be a way for employees to not only have a mind of their own, but be able to use the power of their numbers to demand better working conditions.

But yeah, I guess unions=government...

Keep supporting your corporate welfare so that corporations can lower our standards of living.. you'll be standing their screaming "come on boss, don't fire me!  My nose is browner than his!"

[TeePee4Prez]

What garbage.  Unions never killed any industry - even without unions the cost of living in the US means you have to pay your workers $10-15/hour or they will die and not return to work.  In the more slave-labour countries the wage is maybe $1/hour at most.  There is no way unions had any effect on the destruction of industry in america other than perhaps angering the powerful owners who resent any minute infringement on their power.

Basically what you libertarians are saying is that we must accept a $1/hour lifestyle or we are 'destroying industry', completely ignoring the fact that the owners are the ones making all the decisions.  Can't you people see that only owners have power in the US?  Why do you think this should be the absolute and only way to do things?  You just accept enslavement without the slightest intellectual questioning.

yes keep perpetuating that myth so we sheeple will depend on government to keep us employed and happy (they do just such a wonderful job)..  Man you just have no understanding economics do you?

How is it that unions=depending on government for a job?

I've always understood unions to be a way for employees to not only have a mind of their own, but be able to use the power of their numbers to demand better working conditions.

But yeah, I guess unions=government...

Keep supporting your corporate welfare so that corporations can lower our standards of living.. you'll be standing their screaming "come on boss, don't fire me!  My nose is browner than his!"

While unions have gone too far they have definitely increased living standards in this country.    I can definitely understand the "power in numbers" concept and completely support the right to organize.  However, some of these excessive pensions and vacations are the reason Detroit  was and currently is on the decline.  There are times I think government needs to determine when either side goes too far so they don't self destruct. 

[opebo]

yes keep perpetuating that myth so we sheeple will depend on government to keep us employed and happy (they do just such a wonderful job)..  Man you just have no understanding economics do you?

Your 'understanding of economics' is just an acceptance of a rather silly argument for the absolute power of the owning class.  All of this is political, Bluegrass, and all of it can be changed.  Why do you accept absolute subjugation?  (well, I know we all have to or we'll be killed, but I mean you don't have to accept it intellectually)

[SPC]

With all fairness to unions, they could not have destroyed indutry without the government kickbacks they have received.

[MODU]

[insert my usual comment about unions here]

[Jacobtm]

Unions are labor cartels. Just like producers can raise prices by all agreeing to not undercut the other, workers can raise the prices of their labor by refusing to work for wages lower than a certain level.

By mandating a higher-than-market-value wage, unions effectively restrict the amount of workers any firm (or in this case, government) may hire. So the workers that are lucky enough to get the jobs get higher wages, but more people are left without work at all.

Let's say this city had $10million budgeted for workers of all sorts. Assume the average market rate for a salary would be $50k a year, but unions demand $100k a year. The city could hire 200 non-union workers, but only hire 100 union workers. That's 100 people without jobs, and 100 people who're benefiting at the expense of those 100 unemployed people. In this case, unions are responsible for widening disparities between the haves and have nots, by explicitly excluding some workers for their own benefit.

Besides that, obviously, if the wages demanded are prohibitively high, they can severely drain the resources of whatever entity is hiring them.

[Storebought]

What garbage.  Unions never killed any industry - even without unions the cost of living in the US means you have to pay your workers $10-15/hour or they will die and not return to work.  In the more slave-labour countries the wage is maybe $1/hour at most.  There is no way unions had any effect on the destruction of industry in america other than perhaps angering the powerful owners who resent any minute infringement on their power.

Or, perhaps, that business managers made too many expensive mistakes during the 1960s and 1970s to maintain the solvency of their businesses, such as inflation-indexed pay raises and defined pensions for unionized employees.

[opebo]

What garbage.  Unions never killed any industry - even without unions the cost of living in the US means you have to pay your workers $10-15/hour or they will die and not return to work.  In the more slave-labour countries the wage is maybe $1/hour at most.  There is no way unions had any effect on the destruction of industry in america other than perhaps angering the powerful owners who resent any minute infringement on their power.

Or, perhaps, that business managers made too many expensive mistakes during the 1960s and 1970s to maintain the solvency of their businesses, such as inflation-indexed pay raises and defined pensions for unionized employees.

No, they moved the jobs to the slave countries.  If there were no slaves being forced to work for $1/hour or whatever it is, these workers who fought for some political power could make their decent living - $35/hour or so.

[dead0man]

What garbage.  Unions never killed any industry - even without unions the cost of living in the US means you have to pay your workers $10-15/hour or they will die and not return to work.  In the more slave-labour countries the wage is maybe $1/hour at most.  There is no way unions had any effect on the destruction of industry in america other than perhaps angering the powerful owners who resent any minute infringement on their power.

Or, perhaps, that business managers made too many expensive mistakes during the 1960s and 1970s to maintain the solvency of their businesses, such as inflation-indexed pay raises and defined pensions for unionized employees.

No, they moved the jobs to the slave countries.  If there were no slaves being forced to work for $1/hour or whatever it is, these workers who fought for some political power could make their decent living - $35/hour or so.

Only if we made sure we couldn't import anything close to what that guy was making for $35.  For example, if you wanted an American factory making lawnmowers and wanted to pay everybody in the factory at least $35 an hour you'd have to make sure lawnmowers made in Mexico (because they're only making $9 an hour) didn't get in.   And then BAM, we're all stuck paying $800 for what was a $130 lawnmower.  The only way your theory could even last a year would be if you froze ALL imports of anything that could be made in the US.  Do you really want that?  Do you think that would be the best for America and Americans?

Take a macro economics class at your local community college, it would help a lot.