Would Barack Obama be considered for the presidency if he was not black?

[DownWithTheLeft]

Obama is "special" alright.  The man is using race as a veichle of influencing voters, he is near declaring a vote against him is racist.  He has taken Michael Steele campaigning to a nat'l level

Do you want to know what Obama stood to gain by playing the race card? Nothing. Absolutely nothing. And its testament to the fact that Obama hasn't gone down that road, which is why he is on the verge of clinching his party's presidential nomination. And that it is something he could not have achieved without white support

Obama has never played 'race' politics. Not in Chicago, where he lost a primary challenge to Rep. Bobby Rush, a self-acknowledged 'race politician'; nor in his Illinois Senate campaign; and nor in his campaign to be the Democratic presidential nominee

That said, and it pains me to say this given the fact its the 21st century, it is likely that there will be some voters who will flatly refuse to support Obama because he is black be it in a Democratic primary or the general. Similarly, there are some who would not vote for Clinton because she's a woman. Similarly, there are some who might not vote for McCain because they may consider him too old

Dave

Obama does not have to play the race card when everyone does it for him.

[I left.]

I haven't tried to refute that statement.
I am questioning its relevance, however.  Obama was, in fact, born African-American, whether you like it or not. Every candidate has certain favorable traits that contribute to their success.   Try and argue politically, based on principles and ideas, and not with such garbage.

What am arguing is that Obama is considered ONLY on the basis of being black, and NOTHING to do with achievements.  How does that not have any relevance?  If Americans elect someone b/c they are black and not b/c they are qualified, that is disasterous

And that is entirely false. Obama may have become relevant due to his race, but you've obviously not been paying the least attention to the actual presidential race, if you believe that that is the primary factor involved in this contest.

How is it not the primary factor in this contest?  Why is Obama running up huge margins?  People see the hip young black guy is better than the crabby old women, to think the average America considers anything more than that is thinking too much of the American populus.  His huge wins in African-American vote is also inflating his numbers.

Let me ask you this. How much of the black vote die Ken Blackwell get in the Ohio gubernatorial election?

Not a lot, however, Ken Blackwell was just a terrible candidate and a Republican.  No Republican is going to snag huge numbers in the black vote, if it was that easy, Republicans would find blacks for every election.  I am not saying the Republicans are not guilty of using race *cough* Michael Steele *cough*

If it's all truly a question of race, then blacks would have abandoned their political leanings to vote for a possible black govenor.

Obviously, and you will not that I have not denied this at any point, Obama's race has been a certain motivating factor. It has inspired people that we might not be very far away from our first black president. But that does remain one single factor.

You're either incredibly naive, or you're playing a joke on us here, if you don't believe that his actual politics have been the actual core of his campaign.


Hillary Clinton supposedly has the "experience" to run the country ,and she's been a senator for 7 years, but nobody is questioning her legitimacy as a candidate, although it is unlikely that she would have become either one if her husband had not been president.

That should be an indicator of an incredible double standard.

[Democratic Hawk]

Obama is "special" alright.  The man is using race as a veichle of influencing voters, he is near declaring a vote against him is racist.  He has taken Michael Steele campaigning to a nat'l level

Do you want to know what Obama stood to gain by playing the race card? Nothing. Absolutely nothing. And its testament to the fact that Obama hasn't gone down that road, which is why he is on the verge of clinching his party's presidential nomination. And that it is something he could not have achieved without white support

Obama has never played 'race' politics. Not in Chicago, where he lost a primary challenge to Rep. Bobby Rush, a self-acknowledged 'race politician'; nor in his Illinois Senate campaign; and nor in his campaign to be the Democratic presidential nominee

That said, and it pains me to say this given the fact its the 21st century, it is likely that there are some voters who will flatly refuse to support Obama because he is black be it in a Democratic primary or the general. Similarly, there are some who would not vote for Clinton because she's a woman; just as there are some who might not vote for McCain because they may consider him too old

Dave

[DownWithTheLeft]

But what does it mean for him to be white? Obviously his dad is black. Who is this person that is somehow Barack Obama but is not black? Does he have ultural ties to Africa? Did he travel around the world growing up? Did he spend time living in Indonesia? Does he go to a predominantly black church? Is he married to Michelle Obama? Please elaborate.

Do you even understand the point here Fmr. Sen. DWTL?

I don't mean this to be rude, but I have not seen you post before and I am wondering, are you unfamiliar with English or at least American culture?  It was a hypothetical, I am not saying that there is a white Obama out there.  I'm saying Obama is black and that is why he is succesful, hence, if he was not black he would not be concerned for the presidency

[I left.]

As long as he was still a young, smart, good looking Senator from Illinois who opposed the war in Iraq from the start, he would have had a shot.

Also, are you saying voters are racist for voting for him?  It's their right to vote for whoever they think would be best and nobody stopped other people with his experience level or more experience from running. I don't understand the point you are trying to make as far as that goes.

Maybe so, but having 95% of the African American vote doesn't hurt when you are running against the Clinton machine. In these southern states, he started with 40-60% of the vote in most cases. With a handicap like that, it's almost impossible for anyone to win. Race plays a huge part in this movement. Being anti-war has never been the be all end all issue in the past, and it wouldn't have been this year. If it was, then Dennis Kucinich should have done better. It's his speeches and his race that has allowed him to do as well as he's done. John Edwards is considered a good, inspiring speaker, yet he didn't make it anywhere. Without the black vote, Obama would've had no shot against Hillary.

True, but no Democrat can win without huge black margins.

Just a note on your comment, Al Sharpton did very poorly amongst black voters.

Al Sharpton was never concerned a real candidate, I will concede that Obama is more qualified than Sharpton, Sharpton was never even dog catcher.  As far as margins, Dems are never going to win less than 80% of the black vote anyway.  So if the difference is between 85% and 90%, we are talking 5% of a group that makes up about 10-15% of the population.  So what is that?  Less than a percentage point?

Do you have any idea how relevant that is?

Imagine if blacks stopped voting in places like Michigan or Pennsylvania or Ohio.

[I left.]

Every President ever has been President primarily for some other reason than merit.  Sorry.

Does that make it any better?

That's your typical way to weasel your way out of any embarrasing confrontation?

The fact remains that very few presidents or presidential candidates are truly qualified for the job.

One must wonder why you choose to go after Obama. Especially considering the president that is currently in office.

The president in office had qualifications other than his father, he was the governor of one of the largest states for 6 years.  That is more qualification than a lot of presidents.  Other than being black, Obama has not accomplished anything or lead anyone.

Please don't be so intellectually dishonest as to suggest that being a governor for 6 years is much greater experience than being a U.S. Senator for 3 years and a State Senator for years before that. At least Obama has some experience with foreign affairs, for example. Bush had none and look where that got us.

I do not believe it is intellectually dishonest if that state is Texas, if the state was Vermont or Wyoming you are right.  Plus, Obama not visiting Iraq since 2006 does not bode well for his "foreign affairs" cred

The size of a state has absolutely nothing to do with someone's competence as the primary executive power thereof.

[DownWithTheLeft]

If it's all truly a question of race, then blacks would have abandoned their political leanings to vote for a possible black govenor.

Obviously, and you will not that I have not denied this at any point, Obama's race has been a certain motivating factor. It has inspired people that we might not be very far away from our first black president. But that does remain one single factor.

You're either incredibly naive, or you're playing a joke on us here, if you don't believe that his actual politics have been the actual core of his campaign.

Hillary Clinton supposedly has the "experience" to run the country ,and she's been a senator for 7 years, but nobody is questioning her legitimacy as a candidate, although it is unlikely that she would have become either one if her husband had not been president.

That should be an indicator of an incredible double standard.

Sure, Obama's campaign NOW is about his plan for the future and ideas and all that stuff that politicans try and convince us to believe.  But, the only reason he is in this position is because of his race.  His race is what took him to this point.  Without being black, he'd be another run of the mill senator from a midwestern state

[All life is a blur of Republicans and meat.]

Down, it seems like you have issues with black people in general. Most of your points have been disproved but you are still continuing with single minded (and obviously false) rant.

If Obama was just some everyday black dude, he never would have had a shot. His race has obviously helped him in some ways while hurting him in other ways. In the end, it is only one of several factors that have played a part in his rise on the political scene and in presidential politics.

[DownWithTheLeft]

The size of a state has absolutely nothing to do with someone's competence as the primary executive power thereof.

You do not think it takes more work to run Texas than Vermont or Wyoming?

[I left.]

The size of a state has absolutely nothing to do with someone's competence as the primary executive power thereof.

You do not think it takes more work to run Texas than Vermont or Wyoming?

It's larger, and more diverse, but it doesn't require qualities that would not be necessary in smaller states.

[DownWithTheLeft]

Down, it seems like you have issues with black people in general. Most of your points have been disproved but you are still continuing with single minded (and obviously false) rant.

If Obama was just some everyday black dude, he never would have had a shot. His race has obviously helped him in some ways while hurting him in other ways. In the end, it is only one of several factors that have played a part in his rise on the political scene and in presidential politics.

Eraserhead, I have never considered you to be a ad hominem attack poster, but I think that is quite unfair to say I have problem with black people.  I have problems with race baiter, which is what Obama's camp is.  Obviously the "every day black dude" has no shot, but Obama is not your every day black dude.  He is seizing oppurtunities presented to him, for which I give him credit, but those oppurtunies come via his race

[DownWithTheLeft]

The size of a state has absolutely nothing to do with someone's competence as the primary executive power thereof.

You do not think it takes more work to run Texas than Vermont or Wyoming?

It's larger, and more diverse, but it doesn't require qualities that would not be necessary in smaller states.

Fair enough, but the task is certainly closer to running the United States.

BTW, this topic is pretty awesome, thanks to everyone who is participating, over 50 replies in under an hour.  Gotta go now, hope to continue this discussion later.

[emailking]

But what does it mean for him to be white? Obviously his dad is black. Who is this person that is somehow Barack Obama but is not black? Does he have ultural ties to Africa? Did he travel around the world growing up? Did he spend time living in Indonesia? Does he go to a predominantly black church? Is he married to Michelle Obama? Please elaborate.

Do you even understand the point here Fmr. Sen. DWTL?

I don't mean this to be rude, but I have not seen you post before and I am wondering, are you unfamiliar with English or at least American culture?  It was a hypothetical, I am not saying that there is a white Obama out there.  I'm saying Obama is black and that is why he is succesful, hence, if he was not black he would not be concerned for the presidency

The point is that your question, your hypothetical, is null.

It's like asking what's north of the north pole. Sure, it's a hypothetical that there could be a north of the north pole. But there's no way to even attempt a sensible anwer because the question is absurd.

Obama is black. That is the reality. You pose it as a hypothetical, well what if he were white? Well, someone who is white does not have the human experience that he has had as a black person...as a mixed person at that. Being black is a part of who Obama is not just in terms of his skin color but in shaping his entire life. Just as whatever race you are has shaped your entire life and who you are right now.

Is Obama being considered for the Presidency because he is black? Yes. Because being black has made him who he is. People are voting for the man, not his skin. And yes, he is different from any white person who has run for the Presidency.

There's nothing special about being black here. Bush was considered for the Presidency because he was white. Being white made him who he was. Would people have voted for Bush if he was black? The question doesn't even make sense.

Would Barack Obama be considered for the presidency if he was not black? Null question.

[VP Duke]

As long as he was still a young, smart, good looking Senator from Illinois who opposed the war in Iraq from the start, he would have had a shot.

Also, are you saying voters are racist for voting for him?  It's their right to vote for whoever they think would be best and nobody stopped other people with his experience level or more experience from running. I don't understand the point you are trying to make as far as that goes.

Maybe so, but having 95% of the African American vote doesn't hurt when you are running against the Clinton machine. In these southern states, he started with 40-60% of the vote in most cases. With a handicap like that, it's almost impossible for anyone to win. Race plays a huge part in this movement. Being anti-war has never been the be all end all issue in the past, and it wouldn't have been this year. If it was, then Dennis Kucinich should have done better. It's his speeches and his race that has allowed him to do as well as he's done. John Edwards is considered a good, inspiring speaker, yet he didn't make it anywhere. Without the black vote, Obama would've had no shot against Hillary.

True, but no Democrat can win without huge black margins.

Just a note on your comment, Al Sharpton did very poorly amongst black voters.

And Obama would've too if he had lost Iowa. IIRC, Hillary was winning the black vote until Iowa. Blacks want to back a winner, and they knew Al Sharpton had no chance.

[All life is a blur of Republicans and meat.]

Down, it seems like you have issues with black people in general. Most of your points have been disproved but you are still continuing with single minded (and obviously false) rant.

If Obama was just some everyday black dude, he never would have had a shot. His race has obviously helped him in some ways while hurting him in other ways. In the end, it is only one of several factors that have played a part in his rise on the political scene and in presidential politics.

Eraserhead, I have never considered you to be a ad hominem attack poster, but I think that is quite unfair to say I have problem with black people.  I have problems with race baiter, which is what Obama's camp is.  Obviously the "every day black dude" has no shot, but Obama is not your every day black dude.  He is seizing oppurtunities presented to him, for which I give him credit, but those oppurtunies come via his race

Every oppurtunity he has ever had has come "via his race"? You can't seriously believe that. Like I said, the fact that's he's young, very smart, stood against the war, gives great speechs (that he actually writes himself generally) have all played a part in his rise. Can you seriously deny that? Also do you really think his race has been a major boon for him in places like Ohio, West Virginia, etc.?

[Senator Ben]

As long as he was still a young, smart, good looking Senator from Illinois who opposed the war in Iraq from the start, he would have had a shot.

Also, are you saying voters are racist for voting for him?  It's their right to vote for whoever they think would be best and nobody stopped other people with his experience level or more experience from running. I don't understand the point you are trying to make as far as that goes.

Maybe so, but having 95% of the African American vote doesn't hurt when you are running against the Clinton machine. In these southern states, he started with 40-60% of the vote in most cases. With a handicap like that, it's almost impossible for anyone to win. Race plays a huge part in this movement. Being anti-war has never been the be all end all issue in the past, and it wouldn't have been this year. If it was, then Dennis Kucinich should have done better. It's his speeches and his race that has allowed him to do as well as he's done. John Edwards is considered a good, inspiring speaker, yet he didn't make it anywhere. Without the black vote, Obama would've had no shot against Hillary.

True, but no Democrat can win without huge black margins.

Just a note on your comment, Al Sharpton did very poorly amongst black voters.

And Obama would've too if he had lost Iowa. IIRC, Hillary was winning the black vote until Iowa. Blacks want to back a winner, and they knew Al Sharpton had no chance.

I thought he and HRC were nearly tied until the racial attacks started coming around the time of the SC primary.  Besides, he won handily in lilly-white Iowa.

[All life is a blur of Republicans and meat.]

As long as he was still a young, smart, good looking Senator from Illinois who opposed the war in Iraq from the start, he would have had a shot.

Also, are you saying voters are racist for voting for him?  It's their right to vote for whoever they think would be best and nobody stopped other people with his experience level or more experience from running. I don't understand the point you are trying to make as far as that goes.

Maybe so, but having 95% of the African American vote doesn't hurt when you are running against the Clinton machine. In these southern states, he started with 40-60% of the vote in most cases. With a handicap like that, it's almost impossible for anyone to win. Race plays a huge part in this movement. Being anti-war has never been the be all end all issue in the past, and it wouldn't have been this year. If it was, then Dennis Kucinich should have done better. It's his speeches and his race that has allowed him to do as well as he's done. John Edwards is considered a good, inspiring speaker, yet he didn't make it anywhere. Without the black vote, Obama would've had no shot against Hillary.

True, but no Democrat can win without huge black margins.

Just a note on your comment, Al Sharpton did very poorly amongst black voters.

And Obama would've too if he had lost Iowa. IIRC, Hillary was winning the black vote until Iowa. Blacks want to back a winner, and they knew Al Sharpton had no chance.

Yeah but he didn't. Did he win Iowa only because he's black too?

[Robespierre's Jaw]

DWTL, Barack Obama probably wouldn't be considered for the Presidency of the United States if he was a member of the Black Panthers or if he was similar to Jesse Jackson. Though saying this, if a former member of the Black Panthers can be elected to the United States Congress then a vast majority of the American people do not have a problem with them, then YES he would still be considered for the Presidency of the United States, even if he is black.

Unlike past African-American candidates for the Presidency (e.g. Shirley Chisholm, Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton), Obama is connecting with the voters. Did either Chisholm, Jackson or Sharpton perform well in states with more than 95% of the voters being Caucasian, like Iowa? If Obama can indeed win in such places, like Iowa he is considered for the Presidency of the United States.

[Sibboleth]

Obama is not "black" within the conventional-and-historical American context (or any other context actually, but that's irrelevent here) and I think we can be pretty sure that if he were, he wouldn't have a chance at winning the Presidency.

[Ronnie]

I'm so sick of people going OMG RACIST!!!! if you say that if Obama wasn't black, he wouldn't be where he is.  If he WASN'T black, he wouldn't be getting blacks by a 9-1 margin.  That's just a fact.

[Tender Branson]

Great job, DWTL!  Five pages in two hours is certainly an accomplishment.

[Senator Ben]

I'm so sick of people going OMG RACIST!!!! if you say that if Obama wasn't black, he wouldn't be where he is.  If he WASN'T black, he wouldn't be getting blacks by a 9-1 margin.  That's just a fact.

That is certainly true; although people who say Obama is only doing well because of race are just plain wrong.  He has charisma, and other qualities that help him do well.

[Ronnie]

I'm so sick of people going OMG RACIST!!!! if you say that if Obama wasn't black, he wouldn't be where he is.  If he WASN'T black, he wouldn't be getting blacks by a 9-1 margin.  That's just a fact.

That is certainly true; although people who say Obama is only doing well because of race are just plain wrong.  He has charisma, and other qualities that help him do well.

Yes, and that's another reason why he is doing such a good job - he has extremely good charisma and is very slick.  I have plenty of respect for Barack Obama, since he has brought new voters into the process and has run a tremendously good campaign - he beat the Clinton machine for God's sake! 

I never said that his strength among black voters was the only reason he was doing well.  It DID put him over the top in many primaries though, and helped him to overwhelmingly beat Hillary in states with significant black population.

[Smash255]

Down, it seems like you have issues with black people in general. Most of your points have been disproved but you are still continuing with single minded (and obviously false) rant.

If Obama was just some everyday black dude, he never would have had a shot. His race has obviously helped him in some ways while hurting him in other ways. In the end, it is only one of several factors that have played a part in his rise on the political scene and in presidential politics.

Eraserhead, I have never considered you to be a ad hominem attack poster, but I think that is quite unfair to say I have problem with black people.  I have problems with race baiter, which is what Obama's camp is.  Obviously the "every day black dude" has no shot, but Obama is not your every day black dude.  He is seizing oppurtunities presented to him, for which I give him credit, but those oppurtunies come via his race

You are so utterly full of crap.    I don't think its unfair for eraserhead to suggest you have a problem with black people.  From this very thread it comes across pretty obvious that you have a problem with black people.   He got to where he is because of who he is, his charisma, his ideals, his beliefs, not what he is. 

[Smash255]

I'm so sick of people going OMG RACIST!!!! if you say that if Obama wasn't black, he wouldn't be where he is.  If he WASN'T black, he wouldn't be getting blacks by a 9-1 margin.  That's just a fact.

That is certainly true; although people who say Obama is only doing well because of race are just plain wrong.  He has charisma, and other qualities that help him do well.

Yes, and that's another reason why he is doing such a good job - he has extremely good charisma and is very slick.  I have plenty of respect for Barack Obama, since he has brought new voters into the process and has run a tremendously good campaign - he beat the Clinton machine for God's sake! 

I never said that his strength among black voters was the only reason he was doing well.  It DID put him over the top in many primaries though, and helped him to overwhelmingly beat Hillary in states with significant black population.

Granted, but keep in mind him being black also resulted Clinton winning the white vote by a much larger margin than she otherwise would have in some of these states.