should jeff davis have been hanged?
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  should jeff davis have been hanged?
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Author Topic: should jeff davis have been hanged?  (Read 10389 times)
Verily
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« Reply #50 on: June 13, 2008, 07:21:19 PM »

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Firstly, you have not provided any evidence whatsoever for this claim.

It has been documented several times in The Politically Incorrect Guide to the Constitution and The Politically Incorrect Guide to American History that Rhode Island, Virginia, and New York ratified the Constitution under the pretext that they could withdraw from it at any time.

Even were that the case, that does not permit other states the "we had no idea" argument for secession. Moreover, ignorance of the terms of entering into the Constitution is not a legally valid excuse for later attempting to leave. And the validity of your statement certainly is not proven by appearing in a single agenda-laden pair of books.
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Chuck Hagel 08
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« Reply #51 on: June 13, 2008, 07:25:13 PM »

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Firstly, you have not provided any evidence whatsoever for this claim.

It has been documented several times in The Politically Incorrect Guide to the Constitution and The Politically Incorrect Guide to American History that Rhode Island, Virginia, and New York ratified the Constitution under the pretext that they could withdraw from it at any time.

Even were that the case, that does not permit other states the "we had no idea" argument for secession. Moreover, ignorance of the terms of entering into the Constitution is not a legally valid excuse for later attempting to leave. And the validity of your statement certainly is not proven by appearing in a single agenda-laden pair of books.

As I said earlier, even if it were the case that secession was banned, the federal governmet was granted no power in the Constitution to enforce such a ban, so secession would have to be permited.
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Bogart
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« Reply #52 on: June 13, 2008, 07:48:48 PM »

I think secession was never mentioned because it was never envisioned by the founders. Even so, it took congressional approval to get in, it should take the same to get out.

Incidentally, non-living entities can sign contracts. Governmental agencies and corporations do it all the time.
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Chuck Hagel 08
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« Reply #53 on: June 14, 2008, 01:17:18 PM »

I think secession was never mentioned because it was never envisioned by the founders. Even so, it took congressional approval to get in, it should take the same to get out.

Incidentally, non-living entities can sign contracts. Governmental agencies and corporations do it all the time.

If they had wanted to prevent secession they either would have made it illegal under the constitution or not ratified the 10th Amendment. Corporations are owned by voluntary shareholders.
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« Reply #54 on: June 20, 2008, 10:22:28 AM »

Ems, you seem to forget that secession was seen as a legal option for states prior to the war of northern aggression. New England flirted with this option several times in the early parts of the 19th century and secession was taught as a legal option at West Point. On top of that the US govt supported Texas in its' secession from Mexico as well as supported Panama in its' secession from Columbia. To claim that the govt has not accepted secession as a valid legal option or that the union is perpetual would just further perpetuate the Yankee myth of history.

As you said, the Articles of Confederation do indeed state that the Union is perpetual, but if this were true, then why were the states essentially allowed to secede from the American confederacy to form the current USA? Shouldn't the leaders of that rebellion have been hung?
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Emsworth
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« Reply #55 on: June 20, 2008, 06:08:39 PM »

New England flirted with this option several times in the early parts of the 19th century and secession was taught as a legal option at West Point.
It is absolutely true that a number of states regarded secession as constitutionally permissible. However, it is the actual text of the document, and not the interpretation of any particular state, that must dictate the outcome.

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We need not even look as far as Texas or Panama. The United States themselves originally "seceded" from the empire of Great Britain. The Declaration of Independence was a violation of British law; in fact, it amounted to treason. In all probability, Texas' secession from Mexico and Panama's secession from Mexico were also illegal.

I am only claiming that secession violates the Constitution of the United States. But that does not mean that secession would never be justified. Indeed, even illegal actions (such as a revolution) are sometimes acceptable responses to tyranny.
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« Reply #56 on: June 20, 2008, 06:16:41 PM »

I think it's fair to say that a Unilateral Declaration of Independence is legal when the people declaring it win.
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« Reply #57 on: June 20, 2008, 07:43:19 PM »

I think it's fair to say that a Unilateral Declaration of Independence is legal when the people declaring it win.

That is true and I don't debate that but just because you lose doesn't make the cause "wrong".
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minionofmidas
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« Reply #58 on: June 21, 2008, 07:19:12 AM »

Who doesn't? Just because someone deserves to die is no reason to kill him.
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CPT MikeyMike
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« Reply #59 on: June 21, 2008, 09:49:06 AM »

With hindsight, I voted no because Lincoln would have wanted it that way. If Davis was going to be hanged then Robert E. Lee should have followed him.

Ironically I was at Fort Monroe the other day - the place where Davis was imprisoned.
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« Reply #60 on: June 21, 2008, 11:49:36 AM »

With hindsight, I voted no because Lincoln would have wanted it that way. If Davis was going to be hanged then Robert E. Lee should have followed him.

Ironically I was at Fort Monroe the other day - the place where Davis was imprisoned.

They never even committed a crime in the first place. Of course you can't hang an innocent man.

And the one thing I've always wondered if Lincoln said secession was invalid and the southern states never left the union then why were they kicked out at the end of the war and then had to be readmitted to the Union? Also, why were legislators who opposed ratification of the 14th amendment conveniently "removed" from office and replaced by legislators who didn't oppose ratification, like what occurred in Oregon.
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A18
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« Reply #61 on: June 21, 2008, 07:43:02 PM »

Rhode Island, Virginia, and New York ratified the Constitution under the pretext that they could withdraw from it at any time.

Please provide some citations to, and/or quotations of, primary source materials.
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12th Doctor
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« Reply #62 on: June 22, 2008, 03:27:30 AM »

With hindsight, I voted no because Lincoln would have wanted it that way. If Davis was going to be hanged then Robert E. Lee should have followed him.

Ironically I was at Fort Monroe the other day - the place where Davis was imprisoned.

Personally, I could care less if the politicians had been hung... its the notion that Lee and the other generals would be hung that I can't stomach.  Especially since Lee probably did more to reunite the country than any other figure.
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Chuck Hagel 08
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« Reply #63 on: June 23, 2008, 02:55:16 PM »

Rhode Island, Virginia, and New York ratified the Constitution under the pretext that they could withdraw from it at any time.

Please provide some citations to, and/or quotations of, primary source materials.

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http://www.lewrockwell.com/dilorenzo/dilorenzo41.html
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Albus Dumbledore
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« Reply #64 on: June 26, 2008, 03:06:05 PM »

Lew Rockwell isn't a valid source.
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Chuck Hagel 08
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« Reply #65 on: June 27, 2008, 11:03:16 AM »


That person writing the article also wrote two books on the Civil War period.
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