Civil Liberties Amendment

[JohnFKennedy]

I know as President I can no longer propose legislation but I would like for the Senate to hear this Civil Liberties Amendment, Niles and I spoke of a proposed amendment and drafted one.

The Civil Liberties Amendment
Amendment III shall hereby be revised to state:


Clause 1:  No agency of government shall deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

Clause 2: No soldier shall, in time of peace be quartered in any house, without the consent of the owner, nor in time of war, but in a manner to be prescribed by law.

Clause 3: The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Clause 4: Private property shall not be taken for public use, without just compensation.

Clause 5: No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the militia, when in actual service in time of war or public danger.

Clause 6: No person shall be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb.

Clause 7: No person shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself.

Clause 8: In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the region wherein the crime shall have been committed, which region shall have been previously ascertained by law.  If a trial does not occur within one month of the accusation due to lack of evidence or otherwise, the trial will be thrown out of court and the accused will be declared innocent of the crime.

Clause 9:  The accused shall be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the assistance of counsel for his defense.

Clause 10:  Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.

Clause 11:  In suits at common law, where the value in controversy shall exceed twenty dollars, the right of trial by jury shall be preserved, and no fact tried by a jury, shall be otherwise reexamined in any court of the United States, than according to the rules of the common law.

Clause 12:  The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

Clause 13:  The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

Clause 14:  The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.

[The Dowager Mod]

Clause 8 is a killer for me.

[Akno21]

I think we can learn from real-life experiences. Clause 8 must be made clearer. I support this amendment, although I think it should be as detailed as possible to avoid further controversy.

[??????????]

Clause 14 needs to be expanded more.

[JohnFKennedy]

Senators, this is in your hands now, if you will take it to the Senate floor. You must be the ones to work it to an acceptable level and pass it.

[minionofmidas]

Clause 14 needs to be expanded more.

Our justice system consists only of the Supreme Court. Our regions (not states - we don't have these as government entities) don't have judicial powers.
This text is more relevant to America than to the Atlas.

[Patunia]

Apologies for posting here. Was a mistake. Please remove.

[Niles Caulder]

Our justice system consists only of the Supreme Court. Our regions (not states - we don't have these as government entities) don't have judicial powers.
This text is more relevant to America than to the Atlas.

I did miss that "states" reference; it should have read "regions."  This is certainly all in pencil; as Senator Akno21 has said before, we need not emulate the American system when we can exceed it.

But in this case, catching up to the American Bill of Rights is preferable.  One unlucky crop of Senators and President is all that separates us from a draconian [if fantasy] police state in a number of dimensions--and the courts don't yet have a Constitution equipped to do anything about it.

It's a decent platform that can be built upon and tweaked by future generations of Atlasians who wish to delve in earnest into the individual issues herein.  Trying to make each and every item in this list perfect right now is the surest way I can think of to kill the initiative stone dead.

Familiarity with the text was thought to have been advantageous in building a sufficient consensus so the dialogue of civil rights for the Atlas Fantasy Forum has a reference point.

Clause 8 was a fusion of the antique American clause and provision of 1 month-justice in the Atlas constitution.  The Atlas constitution had some room for improvement, "Those guilty of a crime..." instead of "Those accused of a crime...."  (There are a number of verbal clarity issues that ought not to reside in the Highest Law of the Land.)
I didn't include the public poll business, as I thought it was a method that could be legislated...and replaced with legislation when it needed to be somewhere down the road.  I agree many things in the Constitution are better deferred to legislation.

This isn't a banner I'm in a position to wave right now given my job title--just some old business, musings really, we leave in the hands of the Atlasian eldars to pursue at their discretion.  It was my hope to present it in such a fashion that their job was made easier if they chose to do so--but I'm certainly not under the impression it's above tweaking to meet the needs of the Forum.

Just something for the future session of Congress to chew if they're interested--basically a decent contribution to the Constitution, not terribly controversial, and easy to pass publically.

And something for folks to feel good about!

[minionofmidas]

Yeah, right and true.
Clauses eight, eleven and fourteen are the ones that include phrases clashing with what I think the Atlas is and consists of.
The rest I support several 100%

[7,052,770]

I'd recommend this being split into several amendments.

[JohnFKennedy]

I'd recommend this being split into several amendments.

It is an amendment to the same piece of the constitution, the third Amendment. Also Harry, please set up a vote to confirm Ernest as Attorney General.

[Bono]

Bump! Whatever happened to this?

[7,052,770]

It must have gotten lost into the deep darkness.  Anyhow, I suppose we can debate on this now.

[StevenNick]

I hereby propose the following constitutional amendment to be considered by the senate of the United Regions of Atlasia.

The Civil Liberties Amendment
Amendment III shall hereby be revised to state:


Clause 1:  No agency of government shall deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

Clause 2: No soldier shall, in time of peace be quartered in any house, without the consent of the owner, nor in time of war, but in a manner to be prescribed by law.

Clause 3: The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Clause 4: Private property shall not be taken for public use, without just compensation.

Clause 5: No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the militia, when in actual service in time of war or public danger.

Clause 6: No person shall be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb.

Clause 7: No person shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself.

Clause 8: In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the region wherein the crime shall have been committed, which region shall have been previously ascertained by law.  If a trial does not occur within one month of the accusation due to lack of evidence or otherwise, the trial will be thrown out of court and the accused will be declared innocent of the crime.

Clause 9:  The accused shall be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the assistance of counsel for his defense.

Clause 10:  Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.

Clause 11:  In suits at common law, where the value in controversy shall exceed twenty dollars, the right of trial by jury shall be preserved, and no fact tried by a jury, shall be otherwise reexamined in any court of the United States, than according to the rules of the common law.

Clause 12:  The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

Clause 13:  The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

Clause 14:  The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.

[Bono]

Is there some kind of conspiracy to ignore this?

[The Dowager Mod]

As long as the second paragraph of clause 8 is part of the
amendment i will not vote for this.

[Akno21]

Clause 12 needs to be fully explained. If we don't really define these clauses now, then we will face the same problems the real USA has of interpreting amendments like these.

[Platypus]

Is there some kind of conspiracy to ignore this?

well, i'll talk. Basically, this document isn't really all that good. If it wasn't a historical document of importance to americans, i'd vote it down because there are a HEAP of problems with it. So, I plan to abstain from discussion and voting as of now, in respect for its history but also in respect of my views.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

I notice that the "well-regulated militia" portion of the "right to bear arms" is conspicuous by its absence.  While the phrase has not well treated historically, I consider it to be a vital part of that right.  Without that penumbric clause, it would be impossible to place any sort of regulatations on the display, presentation or use of any sort of weaponry, including WMD's.

[TeePee4Prez]

I have a problem with Clause 8 as well.  I think there should be no restirctions on time before a case gets thrown out.

[Niles Caulder]

Well, I hope by offering my thoughts that it's not interpreted as an interest in the outcome.  The nation has gotten by without these civil liberties for this long...it's not like there's a dire necessity.  But I feel obliged to testify before the Senate for as long as it graces its attention upon the draft I plagerized and submitted to the President.

Regarding Clause 8:
Its wording was for the purpose of retaining the frame of time specified in the Atlas constitution!  I didn't want to be the existing rights of the accused when sloppily cutting and pasting this draft.  But I can certainly see how the wheels of justice moving that fast don't necessarilly help the accused.

Regarding Clause 12:
I did omit the phrase thinking it was archaic--and as noted historically abused.  It seems to me the utility of the clause was soley to justify the right and forever after intended to be ignored.  By specifying "militia" versus "personal/home defense" as legitimate "necessities" in the constitution, WMDs have more solid constitutional defense!  By leaving the phrase out, I felt like there was broader room for debate the merits of armed citizenry--and would be that much more likely to settle somewhere saner than reality.

Regarding Senator Hughento's remarks:
Being deprived of your perspective won't help make it any better!  Judging by the staunch judgments, I think it's likely you overlook highly important assets of the American System--at least to America (and that is presumably where Atlasia is at.)  But if you'd rather draft something superior based on some other formula...toss it out there!

Perhaps Senator Harry was right in that these liberties should be passed individually.  A dozen ammendments seems like a tedius chore to me, though, on stuff that isn't REALLY that controversial--being as how we already live it well.  But, it was my impression that this was an obvious (and big) hole needing to be filled in the fantasy constitution, and that doing so would help tie election platforms to real legislation.  Plus the important social issues can play out in fantasy politics to whatever degree the Courts feel like tackling.

[migrendel]

I won't support this amendment until the portions codifying the Second and Tenth Amendments are removed. I'm fine with the rest of the Constitution.

[Bono]

I won't support this amendment until the portions codifying the Second and Tenth Amendments are removed. I'm fine with the rest of the Constitution.

Why, oh why all the hatred on the 2nd ammendment.

[migrendel]

It's rather anachronistic nowadays. No one really needs to have guns, with the exception of policemen, soldiers, etc. I understand that people like to hunt. But they can always find another hobby, while game wardens can selectively sterilize and perform abortions on animals, which would be just as effective in stemming the tide of population growth.

[Bono]

It's rather anachronistic nowadays. No one really needs to have guns, with the exception of policemen, soldiers, etc. I understand that people like to hunt. But they can always find another hobby, while game wardens can selectively sterilize and perform abortions on animals, which would be just as effective in stemming the tide of population growth.

What about self defense?