Gay Marraige will be legal in 50 years

[Brambila]

The poll I saw done by Washington Post and ABC shows that 41% of people believe that gay marraige should be legal, and 55% feelt hat it should not be legal.  But there is an encouraging sign in this poll.

This poll shows that 18-29 year olds favor gay marraige legalization, and 42% oppose.  But for those 65 and older, only 21% favor gay marraige and 75% oppose.

What this all means: the next generation is a generation whose majority is not a bunch of family values idiots.  In 50 years, when the family values idiots die out, say hello to gay marraige.

Have you ever heard the phrase "Ignorant youth"? The youth are always radical. They grow out of it though.

[Brambila]

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CTguy,

Should we have "equal rights" and allow mentally retarded adults to fly planes? What about 40-year-old men marrying 15-year-old boys? What about pedophilia? Polygamy? Incest? Rape? Come on... it's not equal rights we're discussing. Homosexuality is unnatural and immoral.  

[Brambila]

Morality is universal, not relative as many people believe. There is only one moral truth, and many religions follow it- Islam, Christianity, Judaism, Sikhism, Ba'haism, and so on and so fourth.

But why is homosexuality specifically wrong? Because it is a mental disorder that happens during the childhood. If you'de like, I can provide my sources, such as the fact that 44% of homosexual men and 22% of homosexual women were molested as children*, in a study of 2600 homosexuals, 30% of them had 500-1000+ partners in a lifetime**, 75% of homosexuals look for treatment for depression***, Homosexuals are six times as likely to commit suicide than heterosexuals ****, and homosexuals live an average of 20 years younger than heterosexuals*****.

* Archives of Sexual Behavior
** Journal of Sex Research
*** Journal of Consulting and Clinical Psychology
**** Archives of General Psychiatry
***** International Journal of Epidemiology

Yes, homosexuality is unnatural and a disorder.

[Brambila]

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Okay, I give you sources from Psychologists, Psychiatrists, and medical factbooks, and you are telling me that my ideas are out of the mainstream. You have provided no counter evidence, and criticize me. Nice logical fallacy.

The AMA and APA are both liberal organizations, so it's no suprise that they believe homosexuality is "natural" and not disordered.

And no, I'm not 80 years old. Not even close.

[Brambila]

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Nobody's crowned to judge anyone, but the facts remain. Morality is defined by nature. Are there homosexuals in nature? Does it damage the evolutionary process? Is it helpful to evolution? Are there mental disorders that go with homosexuality? No, yes, no, and yes. Homosexuality is thus unnatural.

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No, childhood. The third adolescence is simply when the sexuality comes out more. The childhood is where it happens. Notice that the overwealming majority of homosexuals are feminine. Ever wonder why?

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Evidence?

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Evidence?

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Umm, the gay vote is like 3% of the population. Also, many homosexuals actually acknowledge that their homosexuality is wrong and seek help. Ever heard of Courage? David Morrison?

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Most of these statistics were done by LIBERAL homosexual organizations/studies, with RANDOM homosexuals involved in the study.

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So becuase the mainstream accepts it means it's correct? Wow... no wonder liberals never get anyewhere! I listed at the end of the post who conducted the studies.

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I want to help homosexuals, my friend! Homosexuals are dying because of organizations such as the APA and people who encourage them like you. Encouraging homosexuals to have sex is like encouraging a child to play with knives or matches. Something will eventually go wrong.

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Firstly, I'm not basing my arguments on religion AT ALL.

Secondly, though I do believe abortion is immoral and murder, I don't know where any of the other two and abortion come into this debate. Interracial marraige isn't disordered- it's completely normal. It's between a man and a woman. People have done this since the beginning of time and have NO MENTAL ILLNESSES. Homosexuality, however, was not common and is a comparatively recent disorder, and homosexuals have mental problems in their life, with 44% of men and 22% of women having been abused as children.

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Historical trivialization; logical fallacy; silly.

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Logical fallacy. I don't have any psychological credentials- I don't claim to have any. I have family members and good friends in Psychology. But that doesn't mean my argument is null and void. Do you have any psychological credentials to prove that homosexuality is not a disorder? I think not.

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This is simply a load of personal attacks with no support. I'm here to have a real debate, not a bunch of insults.

Homosexuality is immoral because of nature. Morality is based on natural law- Does homosexuality help the evolutionary process? Is homosexuality found in other species? Are there mental disorders that come with homosexuality? The answers? No, No, and yes. Further, there is no evidence that homosexuality comes from birth. It was ONE study done by ONE person criticized by DOZENS of ACCREDITED organizations, and it was accepted as fact. It's not fact, it's far from it.

Why do you assume I'm an evangelical?

[Brambila]

NOTE: sorry for the delayed response. I was studying and responding to your posts on and off.

PART 1)

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A) There is absolutely no such thing as a naturally homosexual animal. Many animals practice homosexual sex, but this does not make them homosexual. Augustine had homosexual sex, but he wasn't homosexual. It has to do with being active or passive.

Homosexuality is damaging to the evolutionary process because it encourages using sex solely for fun instead of reproductive. However, many people masturbate, have premarital "Safe" sex, et cetera, and obviously we shouldn't outlaw these practices. I don't think sodomy should be illegal- but I do believe that homosexual marriage is going beyond the limits.

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Please, enough of your peurile insults. It makes your argument look weak.

You're shifting the argument. Did I ever say I'm Christian? Your changing the argument... whether or not Christianity is threatening the youth  is debatable. Though I'm highly skeptical of anything that Columbia University or the National Institutes of Health studies, the difference between those who used condoms and made pledges and those who used condoms and didn't pledge is only different by about 20% for males and 10% for girls- that  really isn't very different, seeing how few STD are prevented by condoms. Further, the study also said that the pledging did succeed in delaying intercourse until adulthood. Finally, the study didn't show how much more likely pledged teens were to get STDS.

Finally, in Christianity, Islam and Orthodox Judaism using condoms is a sin. So if pledged/Christian teens choose to have sex, it's not that they wern't "paying attention" in class, it's that it's a sin to use condoms. Christians look at it as a good thing that these teens don't use condoms.

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It hasn't been a failure- it's becuse of this culture that so many teenagers are having sex in their youth- these problems were very rare prior to 1960. It's only a recent phenomina that the Judeo-Christian-Islamic beliefs have had some failures. Basically, what this culture does is shove sexuality in everyone's face and tell them that there's only one way to prevent disaster, and if somebody comes up with a morally accepted one, liberals destroy it. I feel sorry for the Christians in America. They have it tough.

So, how does all this tie into homosexual sex? The fact that 40% of all AIDS victims are homosexual is pretty sad (Center for Disease Control).

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When I was younger, my sister was diagnosed with dyslexia. Do you think it was just for my parents to tell my sister that she was dyslexic? Of course. Because my parents told her she was dyslexic, she was able to get through school better.

If somebody was a pedophiler, do you think it would be just for me to tell them that they have a mental disorder? Of course.

If you had a son or daughter who was sexually attracted to you, would it be just for you to tell him or her that she had a mental problem? It's quite obvious, don't you think?

If somebody had cancer, would it be just for a doctor to diagnose them?

Understand?

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Yes, but the thing is homosexuals have a higher rate of promiscuity than non-married heterosexuals.

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Once again, a logical fallacy and a historical trivialization. Don't compare Christianity to Homosexuality- they are incomparable. Homosexuality can be cured- Christianity is a belief. Homosexuality is a disorder. Christianity is a religion. Quite different.

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That's an unfounded statistic drawn out by liberals. The National Health and Social Life Survey , a survey done by HOMOSEXUALS and supporters, found that 2.8% of men and 1.4% of women were homosexual.

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This means nothing to me. I don't think you understand the direct influence of psychologists in my life- I've always had psychologists in my life becuase my father is a psychologist, he holds a Psy.D from CSPP Berkeley, and has specialized in helping homosexuals. Believe me, your "human behavior studies" credential is nothing compared to this.

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Um, this does not only come from Thomas Aquinas. Plato/Socrates and various other Greek philosophers and doctors taught this, Charles Darwin, and various others. According to your logic, if it were acceptable to have sexual intercourse with children, that would mean it were right. If you believe this, you're a very sick minded person.

[Brambila]

PART 2)

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Firstly, the APA and AMA are undenyably liberal. This is simply a fact, a fact known by Psychologists I know, and the general American population who knows about the APA. You obviously know very little about it. As a matter of fact, when my father was being accredited back in the 70's, he told them he did not support homosexual rights, and was thrown out of the school with people throwing coffee at him- this was in the 70's, where the APA was not nearly as liberal as it is now. I don't know very much about APHA.

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I've given you evidence by APA-accreditted organizations. I'm not simply making this up. These are REAL statistics by REAL psychologists and REAL homosexuals. Let's review the statistics:

A great number of homosexuals were molested as children.
The majority of homosexuals are feminine.
The majority of homosexuals have seeked help for depression.
Homosexuals are six times more likely to commit suicide.
One third of all pedophilia cases are done by homosexuals*

There obviously is something wrong with homosexuals. Tell me what it is.

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This study was done by a guy named Bruce Bagemihl, but his theory has been attacked by many biologists and zoologists. The problem is, evolution proves his argument wrong. Firstly, his study is based on the fact that animals only have intercourse for pleasure. This is not the case, as if it were, Charles Darwin makes clear, animals would not reproduce. However, animals instictually know to have heterosexual intercourse. Further, you can't ever know if an animal is homosexual because it's having intercourse with other males- firstly, they don't talk. Secondly, Augustine, the famous philosopher and theologian, had sexual intercourse with other men and women before his reform. He wasn't homosexual, but at that time- as in the animal kingdom- there wern't terms such as "hetrosexual" and "homosexual". It was "active" and "passive". If you were actively sexual, you would have sex with everything- men, women, goats, etc. Believe me, I've studied this subject quite extensively.

Bruce Bagemihl also hates heterosexuality, as he's made quite clear in his unfounded book.

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As I've already said, this is simply my basis for the unnaturality of homosexuality in general. Many heterosexuals don't reproduce for children, which is fine. Evolution teaches that all in the Animal Kingdom have sex for reproduction.

Also, the world isn't at all overpopulated, which I knew was going to be introduced into this discussion.

*Clark Institute of Psychiatry, and Whitman College School of Psychology.

[Brambila]

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And where is that?

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I didn't bring religion into this at all. I simply stated that morality is a widely accepted fact, and that the only three religions that claim to have religious truth, Islam, Judaism, and Christainity, practice this. It wasn't introducing religion, I was simply mentioning that interesting point. You've completely changed the debate from "why is homosexuality disorderd?", to "it is only your religious opinion that homosexuality is disordered".

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I never said that all homosexual children are attracted to their parents. I'm sure some of them are- as some heterosexual children are, but that wasn't my point. You completely missed my point, so I'll repeat it. If you had a child who was sexually attracted to you- gay or straight- would you tell your child he is mentally ill or seek help for him?

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Listen, it is a logical fallacy to claim that I cannot debate because I'm not accredited (Argumentum ad verecundiam). I was simply responding to people who were claiming that I had no right to say anything because I'm not accredited.

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The thinking of the APA is mainstream among Psychologists, although many Psychologists, including one of the nominees for President of the American Psychological Association. The APA is one organization that happens to be the most widely known and ergo prestigious. They don't realize that they have many problems in their orgnazation.

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Okay, so I give you sources from accreddited organizations that show that the majority of homosexuals suffer from mental issues, and I gave you many analogies for which you have not yet responded, and now you treat me as if though I'm ignorant. I've been very polite and very open, and you've been attacking me and calling me an "Evangelical" "radical", et cetera. Nice move.

[Brambila]

I'm not animus towards homosexuals- I'm animus towards the homosexual movement. Because of organization such as the APA, thousands of homosexuals are dying every year in America.

I look at homosexuality like I look at pedophilia- I feel sorry for the pedophilers, because they suffer from mental issues.

[Brambila]

Homosexuality is harmful to others. STDs, for instance. Homosexuality also causes depression and other mental disorders.

Further, pedophilia doesn't have to be harmful to the child. What if the child wants to be molested? That's happened before! There was a case a few years ago in Florida where that happened.

[Brambila]

We can go on with this. Fortunately for you, I'm not against sodomy. I'm against gay marriage. Gay marriage means that the government is condoning a curable disorder, and introduces this disorder to the next generation. Ergo, millions of us in future generations will also suffer from homosexuality, and we don't need that to happen.

[Brambila]

The same way poligamy, marriage with minors and incestual marriage will cause problems. People will define these unions as "normal", but they arn't. Why is the government condoning such a disorder?

[Brambila]

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This is exactly what liberal medical organizations try to teach, but the APA diisagrees. The APA, as liberal as it is, believes homosexuality (any sexuality, for that matter) appears in the third adolescence. The only support given that shows homosexuality is biological is known as Harmer's Study, which was a study done by a neurologist and psychiatrist, Dr. Harmer (I can't recall his first name at this time). He gathered 44 homosexuals and found that 33 out of 44 of them had an xq28 gene. He concluded that homosexuals are born with these gene. However, his study has yet to be redone with the same results. Another Neurologist did the study- he got 50 men, no sexuality specified, and found that 23 of them had the gene as well. Science magazine blasted the study, as well as Archives of General Psychiatry and several other magazines, psychologists, and psychatrists. The APA has no opinion on the study itself, but remains it's belief that sexuality appears in the third adolescence.

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The twin studies are extremely biased. The twins were recruit via advertisements in homosexual newspapers and magazines, so it's not suprising that half of the female twins were homosexual. Further, many of the twins were raised in the same home.   Though there are theories that homosexuals could be born with the disorder, it's not probable. There are also studies that abortion causes breast cancer, but a direct link has not been confirmed by any organizations. If, however, it is true that homosexuals are born with the disorder, this only proves that the disorder comes from conception and perhaps is genetic- this will also prove that alcoholism is genetic. However, this does not make it untreatable. Many genetic disorders can be treated and cured.

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Don't misunderstand me- i'm not saying homosexuals choose to be gay. That's completely ridiculous. I believe that it has to do with childhood envirmental issues, specifically parental imbalance. Notice that the overwealming majority of homosexual men and women are, for men, feminine, and for women, masculine. Though this is more so with homosexual men rather than women, why is this? Obviously, the child had an imbalance with the parents. Many homosexual men claim to have had "wonderful relationships" with their father, but this doesn't nessecarily mean that the relationship was unbalanced.

[Brambila]

Once again, that issue is uncomparable. Although I do agree that Mexicans here illegally should be deported back to Mexico, this is irrelivent to the homosexual issue. The only relevency I see is that not all homosexuals are practicing. But of the practicing homosexuals, and of the illegal mexicans, justice could be shown. In the Bay Area, for instance, there's a man who had commited acts of sexual assult, and has been castrated and paid fines. He lived in Marin county, but was kicked out. He moved to Oakland, but was kicked out. Same thing happened in Alameda. Now he's living in San Jose, and people want him out again. So yes, citizens have a right to kick people out of their town if the majority of them don't want them there (with good reason). I'm not saying I support the proposal, but I can understand why they are proposing it.

[Brambila]

Dang, that took you like six minutes to read and respond....

My point was that because homosexuals have so many problems, there has to be something wrong with them. I mean, not all people suffering from depression commit suicide. Not all alcoholics abuse alcohol*. Does that mean that there's nothing wrong with the two groups of people and we're "generalizing" if we believe otherwise? Of course not. For your second point, you're simply making a historical trivialization. Homosexuality is something mental, not physical. We know for a fact that you are born of a race, and that it is impossible to change your race. Even Michael Jackson, who has been pygmented, is still considered black. He's black, that's all there is to it. Homosexuals, however, can be cured; they can change. As a hispanic, I find it insulting and racist that you're comparing homosexuality to being mexican.

*Yes, there is such a thing as alcoholics who have never taken a sip of alcohol, and millions of alcoholics who don't abuse it (anymore). I spoke to Psychologists on the matter.  

[Brambila]

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Though there is discrimination, I'm going to be very honest- it's extremely infalliable. I lived in El Paso for a year in my life. Although I am Mexican, my skin color is whiter than most Mexicans. In El Paso I suffered from more racial slurs from my own people, then from whites anywhere i've been. I don't believe racism is a major threat to hispanics. I'm sure it's a bigger issue among blacks, but even then I think it's been exaggerated. However, to compare either people to homosexuals is disgustingly racism in itself. I can't change the fact that I'm hispanic. Alan Keyes can't change the fact that he's black. Both are completely natural. However, homosexuality is not. It's a disorder that can be treated, like alcoholism, pedophilia, et cetera.

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They are quite a few studies, CTguy. Further, they are very important studies, and even further you, nor anyone in opposion, have failed to provide any counter studies that prove these studies are incorrect.

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No, it is actually true that these organizations are liberal, and not merely because I disagree with them on this one issue. The APA is most definately liberal.

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CTguy, once again, you can't change the fact that we're mexican. However, alcoholics can. Pedophilers can. People who are depressed can. If we look at these latter three groups, would we be generalizing and discriminatory if we believed they have problems? Of course not.

I want you both to answer this specific point:

It's interesting that you consider pedophilia a mental disorder because it harms little boys, but you don't consider homosexuality a mental disorder because it doesn't unwillfully harm anyone directly. Either both pedophilia and homosexuality are normal, or they are both abnormal. What will the answer be?

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Homosexual is a sexual minority, not a racial minority. I don't want to have to repeat myself, so just read what I said to CTguy.

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Can I see any of these studies you speak of? As far as I know, Harmer's Study and the other twin study are the only two that have been accreddited. I may be wrong, so please- bring light to my ignorance!

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I'm glad you acknowledge that. Yes, alcoholism deprives the person from free will, but they did make one decision to begin the binge in the first place. Do you think that accounts for anything? Perhaps homosexuality is more unjust than alcoholism, because alcoholics don't have free will on the matter while homosexuals do.

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You prove that homosexual makes sense legally, but how does this prove that homosexuality is not a mental disorder? Simply because pedophilia and polygamy cause problems doesn't mean they are mental disorders. Additionally, what about 15-year-olds marrying 40-year-olds? A 15-year-old is quite mature in their decision, certainly no more mature than an 18-year-old. What about a 17-year-old and a 40-year-old. There is no difference between an 18-year-old and 17-year-old. The only thing restricting the two is their age, and I certainly know many 30-year-olds who are less comptent and responsiable than 15-year-olds.

You also bring up an important point that I find extremely important, and I put it in bold. If three women who, by their own will, and no children involved, wanted to marry one man, would it be just to allow them to marry, with no children involved? What about two siblings who decided not to have children wanted to marry, would it be just? I mean, you speak of tearing families apart and causing mental struggle in relationships, and that is exactly what homosexual relationships do!

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Howard Stern, suprisingly as it may seem, wrote a book about overcoming homosexuality. It really is not as difficult as everyone makes it seem. But at any rate, by banning poligamy, you are banning poligamists from satisfying their desires. Same thing with two siblings. What if the two siblings really love eachother and want to make love? You're restricting them of their love!

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It's called Reparative Therapy. Yes, I know, this is a scary word for a lot of people and the APA has condemned it, but only because the APA disagrees with the issue altogether. As a said, even the liberal Howard Stern wrote a book on how to overcome homosexual attraction. I believe the man who came up with Reparative Treatment is Doctor Joseph Nicholsi, PhD. Read his introduction in the link I provided.

[Brambila]

I'm not labling you as a racist, I'm saying that your comments are considerably racist. I'm sure there is racism among minorities, and I'm sure there's racism among white people too (in El PAso, for instance).

[Brambila]

Okay, I'm hungry, tired, and I'm a bit spoiled in discussing this matter. I'll respond to this either later tonight or tommorrow.

(along with the abortion posts)

[Brambila]

That study was only done in Wisconsin, perhaps only in Madison.

[Brambila]

All of the polls I have shown, though woven into local stories are NATIONAL POLLS.  It is indisputable that nationally people aged 18-30 support gay marriage.  Even if it was done in Wisconsin, which it wasn't, that is a swing state that is similar to the national electorate as a whole.  The fact is the only place you could take a poll where people agree with your idiocy on gay people is in the most redneck of areas like Rhea county...  and even then you would have to only use a sample pool of people with IQ's under 70.

SHOW ME. Don't just talk. I'm not stupid, these polls were done in WISCONSIN. I didn't see ANYTHING in EITHER polls that said they were nationwide.