China razes Mosque ...
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MODU
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« on: June 24, 2008, 02:54:03 PM »


... because it refused to display the Olympic symbol.

"China razes mosque for refusing Olympics sign"

BEIJING – Chinese authorities in the restive far western region of Xinjiang have demolished a mosque for refusing to put up signs in support of this August’s Beijing Olympics, an exiled group said on Monday.

The mosque was in Kalpin county near Aksu city in Xinjiang’s rugged southwest, the World Uyghur Congress said.

The spokesman’s office of the Xinjiang government said it had no immediate comment, while telephone calls to the county government went unanswered.

“China is forcing mosques in East Turkistan to publicise the Beijing Olympics to get the Uighur people to support the Games (but) this has been resisted by the Uighurs,” World Uyghur Congress spokesman Dilxat Raxit said in an emailed statement.

Beijing says Al-Qaeda is working with militants in Xinjiang to use terror to establish an independent state called East Turkistan.

Oil-rich Xinjiang is home to 8 million Turkic-speaking Uighurs, many of whom resent the growing economic and cultural influence of the Han Chinese.

Dilxat Raxit added that the mosque, which had been rebuilt in 1998, was accused of illegally renovating the structure, carrying out illegal religious activities and illegally storing copies of the Qur’an. “The Qur’an copies in the mosque have been seized by the government and dozens of people detained,” he said. “The detained Uighurs have been tortured”.
The Olympic torch relay passed through Xinjiang last week under tight security and tight controls over foreign media covering the event.
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Хahar 🤔
Xahar
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« Reply #1 on: June 24, 2008, 03:03:43 PM »

Boycott the Olympics.
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benconstine
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« Reply #2 on: June 24, 2008, 03:07:58 PM »

Are you f**king kidding me?
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minionofmidas
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« Reply #3 on: June 24, 2008, 03:31:12 PM »

Independence for East Turkestan NOW!
Seriously. These people have gotten it far worse from the Chinese than Tibet, they're just lacking a Dalai Lama.
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12th Doctor
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« Reply #4 on: June 24, 2008, 03:38:37 PM »

What do you mean?  The Mosque was destroyed in the Earthquake... this is just Western Propaganda... Pity us.
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afleitch
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« Reply #5 on: June 24, 2008, 03:45:46 PM »
« Edited: June 24, 2008, 03:48:42 PM by afleitch »

Independence for East Turkestan NOW!
Seriously. These people have gotten it far worse from the Chinese than Tibet, they're just lacking a Dalai Lama.

And then what they would probably end up getting, after the initial power vacuum and the following struggle? Their own Islamic despot or their own Ataturk? In todays climate where those who can shout the loudest, advance the concept of 'brotherhood' based on faith and military support from middle eastern despotic regimes at the expense of the concept of a secular, non exclusive state for the Ughyur people, promote ethnic cleansing and generally blow people up will probable emerge victorious.

And China would then blast them back to the Stone Age.

And most bizzare is that people probably wouldn't blame them for doing so.
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12th Doctor
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« Reply #6 on: June 25, 2008, 01:03:54 AM »

Independence for East Turkestan NOW!
Seriously. These people have gotten it far worse from the Chinese than Tibet, they're just lacking a Dalai Lama.

And then what they would probably end up getting, after the initial power vacuum and the following struggle? Their own Islamic despot or their own Ataturk? In todays climate where those who can shout the loudest, advance the concept of 'brotherhood' based on faith and military support from middle eastern despotic regimes at the expense of the concept of a secular, non exclusive state for the Ughyur people, promote ethnic cleansing and generally blow people up will probable emerge victorious.

And China would then blast them back to the Stone Age.

And most bizzare is that people probably wouldn't blame them for doing so.

And China isn't creating more radicals by demolishing their mosque?
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minionofmidas
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« Reply #7 on: June 25, 2008, 04:49:52 AM »

Independence for East Turkestan NOW!
Seriously. These people have gotten it far worse from the Chinese than Tibet, they're just lacking a Dalai Lama.

And then what they would probably end up getting, after the initial power vacuum and the following struggle? Their own Islamic despot or their own Ataturk? In todays climate where those who can shout the loudest, advance the concept of 'brotherhood' based on faith and military support from middle eastern despotic regimes at the expense of the concept of a secular, non exclusive state for the Ughyur people, promote ethnic cleansing and generally blow people up will probable emerge victorious.

And China would then blast them back to the Stone Age.

And most bizzare is that people probably wouldn't blame them for doing so.
So, in other words the Uyghur deserve slavery because they're fairly unsophisticated radical Muslims.
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afleitch
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« Reply #8 on: June 25, 2008, 07:30:09 AM »


So, in other words the Uyghur deserve slavery because they're fairly unsophisticated radical Muslims.


Of course most of them are not, but many of those involved in the independence movement (barring moderates like Erkin Alptekin) are. Who do you think is going to come to their aid if East Turkestan tunrs on itself? Likewise, as you should know and certainly not feign ignorance of, Islamist movements tend to emphasise religion over ethnicity. Many ethnic Uyghurs are not Muslim and East Turkestan is also home to people who are not Uyghur. Fundementalists in East Turkestan have also not been shy in indicating what would happen to them under an Islamist state.

Statements like 'Independence NOW !!!' are not constructive without taking into consideration the likely alternative arrangement for the Uyghurs which is replacing one tyranny with another! Any independence for East Turkestan (which yes, I do support) has to be phased and monitored not triggered by war or encouraged by hot air blowing from the West blinkered by 'China=Bad'

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minionofmidas
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« Reply #9 on: June 25, 2008, 07:57:12 AM »


So, in other words the Uyghur deserve slavery because they're fairly unsophisticated radical Muslims.


Of course most of them are not, but many of those involved in the independence movement (barring moderates like Erkin Alptekin) are.
Actually... most of them are. That was not my point.
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Uh... what?
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Yes. Quite a few Hui. Quite a few Kazakhs. Also Muslims to a man, of course.
And a lot of Chinese immigrants who wouldn't be there if the central government didn't explicitly want them to be there. Just as in Tibet, except far more of them. Just as in much of the German-occupied parts of Poland before 1918 (not everywhere - some areas had a legit German presence). Point being: Most of them would leave voluntarily if China just let them, quite without an Uyghur post-independence ethnic cleansing campaign (which I sadly agree would probably occur.)
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In principle I would agree, obviously. (I certainly am not calling for a US invasion of East Turkestan, in case you were wondering. Tongue ) In this case, that means no independence ever, though.

And yeah, I still tend to prefer a homemade tyranny when all things are equal.
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Bunwahaha [still dunno why, but well, so be it]
tsionebreicruoc
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« Reply #10 on: June 25, 2008, 10:32:00 AM »
« Edited: June 25, 2008, 10:38:53 AM by tsionebreicruoc »

China razes Mosque...

Uygour would like independance...

Chinese are not here because they want...

Wow! So much things which are OK with an other part of my scenario for the future of the world!

Wanna know this other part?

Sure?

OK

Well, if something that I expect arrives, I mean a WW3 which begins in Persian Gulf and which leads step by step to West and friends vs. Russia, China, and other opportunist allies. I think that through other things, West will win, after beginning to lose and after a metamorphose which will permit it to win and so we would have through other things:

1. Russian federation would explode, you could have seen this in the thread on Russia.

And:

2. Dead of Chinese "communist" regime, which would also explode in ethnic regions, and which would become some sort of European Union too, like what I see for Russia. And also here maybe composed of other countries, or regions of other countries of this area.

And you wanna know the best concerning this?

Sure?

OK

I think that the biggest part of China could change from its "communist" regime to an... evangelical regime (!).

Well, I've said enough on this scenario...

Hmm, that's not only one I have, but that's the one in which I manage to make coincide the most of things, that's my top of the list one...

I go too far?

Maybe, yes, maybe. But, maybe not...
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afleitch
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« Reply #11 on: June 25, 2008, 12:41:06 PM »

And a lot of Chinese immigrants who wouldn't be there if the central government didn't explicitly want them to be there. Just as in Tibet, except far more of them. Just as in much of the German-occupied parts of Poland before 1918 (not everywhere - some areas had a legit German presence). Point being: Most of them would leave voluntarily if China just let them, quite without an Uyghur post-independence ethnic cleansing campaign (which I sadly agree would probably occur.)

The Han Chinese make up some, say 40% of the population. Even 'letting' them leave would probably devastate the local economy. And any policy based on the pretence of 'asking them to leave' bearing in mind the high % of those born in Xinjiang would also be a policy of ethnic cleansing, just without violence. As was the forced population 'exchanges' between Germany and Poland post WWII and the attempts by nationalists in the former Soviet Union to drive out ethnic Russians from Latvia or Tatarstan for example.

'Asking' or the pretence of giving people the means to 'let them leave' do not forget is the very sort of policy proposed by parties in Europe such as the BNP. On that note some of the smoke and mirrors nationalistic drivel from Western liberals during the riots in Lhasa regarding the position of the Han Chinese in Tibet was not far from that Sad

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Beet
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« Reply #12 on: June 25, 2008, 08:16:00 PM »

Han chauvinism.

A large number of Russians left Kazahkstan in the 1990s and it didn't "devastate the local economy," once the initial shock of de-integration had worn off and oil & gas prices started to increase rapidly, especially since Kazahkstan remained within the CIS. O/c, East Turkistan/Xinjiang's natural resource supplies are more depleted.
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exnaderite
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« Reply #13 on: June 25, 2008, 11:07:34 PM »

Just want to interject here:

There are parts of Xinjiang which are placed directly under Chinese Military control, mostly with ethnic Han populations.

Of course the regime has been promoting immigration to the area. My grandmother worked there in the early days, cooperating with the Russians on projects before the Sino-Soviet split. But what westerners forget is that the Chinese look at a timeframe of hundreds or thousands of years. Tibet, Mongolia, Central Asia, and Xinjiang have always been under the influence of the empires of China (whether they be outright annexation or vassal states or protectorates). The only exception to this rule is whenever China itself is in a period of civil war and incapable of influencing those areas.

"Free Tibet" is known only because it has a high profile leader and because the West is more sympathetic to Buddhists than Muslims.

The current regime is definitely playing the nationalist card and views itself as a continuation of those empires, and is eager to take the glory for rebuilding the country from 100 years of semi-colonialism. Therefore it's not quite right to accuse China of occupying those areas when from a historical context those areas have been under Chinese influence for thousands of years.

So the problem with ethnic repression is much more to do with human rights and lack of democracy in general, which is something on which the regime will be forced to eventually bow down.

Even if all the ethnic Han population magically left and those areas became independent states, Tibet and Xinjiang (a.k.a. Turkestan) will still develop close trade and political relations with Beijing, which will essentially negate the purpose of independence. In fact the same is already happening with the dirt-poor post-Soviet Central Asian countries.

We'll probably see those areas become autonomous regions similar to Catalonia or Scotland once the Communists relinquish their monopoly.
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minionofmidas
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« Reply #14 on: June 26, 2008, 06:29:02 AM »

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That is not what I was referring to at all... as you hopefully know... or else you were talking of something about which you know nothing.
How high is the percentage born in Turkestan? Given that the Chinese share of the population was 5% 50 years ago and the lower birthrates, it can't be all that extremely high.
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Nyes/not really... although oviously, for *many* of the people involved it probably is. None of which really was my point.

Excellent post by rice, although of course,
Tibet, Mongolia, Central Asia, and Xinjiang have always been under the influence of the empires of China (whether they be outright annexation or vassal states or protectorates). The only exception to this rule is whenever China itself is in a period of civil war and incapable of influencing those areas.
is the traditional chinese view but not really an accurate description of historical realities. Chinese influence in the area waxed and waned. The area has been influenced just as much from the west (ie, West Turkestan and Iran.) Not to mention that China has been conquered from Mongolia a couple of times.
But this:
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was basically my original point.

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A neocolonial dependence instead of the current fully colonial one, eh? Yeah well, still preferable.
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Albus Dumbledore
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« Reply #15 on: June 26, 2008, 09:40:29 AM »

Can the PRC go one week without doing something dickish?
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Хahar 🤔
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« Reply #16 on: June 26, 2008, 12:35:31 PM »

Can the PRC go one week without doing something dickish?

It's the world's only capitalist state (as opposed to a republic which happens to be capitalistic). Capitalist states must do very dickish things to stay in power.
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afleitch
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« Reply #17 on: June 26, 2008, 05:14:33 PM »

That is not what I was referring to at all... as you hopefully know... or else you were talking of something about which you know nothing.
[/quote]

Of course. It was my example and my reference as I said. As was my reference regarding 'minority majorities' in the Russian Federation.
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Flying Dog
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« Reply #18 on: June 26, 2008, 06:45:59 PM »

Where's the outcry from Iran? Oh yea, that's right.....  China basically built their military.
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minionofmidas
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« Reply #19 on: June 27, 2008, 07:36:20 AM »

Where's the outcry from Iran? Oh yea, that's right.....  China basically built their military.
...and they dislike the Sunni Uyghur radicals because of their links to Iran-haters all over the Sunni world. Including Al Qaeda.
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minionofmidas
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« Reply #20 on: June 27, 2008, 07:39:32 AM »


Of course. It was my example and my reference
Well it was an inappropriate example then, as that wasn't much of a case of ethnic cleansing - they moved all of the population of Lower Silesia, Pomerania, East Prussia out, and a wholly new population in.
Of course, compared to the numbers of Slavs displaced by the war - refugees from the German army, slave labourers, etc, mostly resettled in other than their original homes aftet the war too - the figures involved are actually small fry (you can't say that in Germany without public outcry, btw. The right has its own pc code.)
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dead0man
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« Reply #21 on: June 27, 2008, 03:01:17 PM »

Can the PRC go one week without doing something dickish?

It's the world's only capitalist state (as opposed to a republic which happens to be capitalistic).
No, it's not.  It doesn't matter how many times you say it, it's still wrong.
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Хahar 🤔
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« Reply #22 on: June 27, 2008, 05:50:15 PM »

Can the PRC go one week without doing something dickish?

It's the world's only capitalist state (as opposed to a republic which happens to be capitalistic).
No, it's not.  It doesn't matter how many times you say it, it's still wrong.

Yes, it is managed, but only to keep the workers down. It's easier to do business in China than almost anywhere else, because the laborers are represented only by the sham state-sponsored unions.
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dead0man
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« Reply #23 on: June 27, 2008, 10:56:40 PM »

But that's not Capitalism.
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Speed of Sound
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« Reply #24 on: June 27, 2008, 11:36:02 PM »

Horrible, simply horrible. That country is a living example of all the evil that humanity can be. I become a more avid enemy of China with every minute. (And I didn't like them to begin with! Tongue)
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