July 4th makes me sick

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Well, the "greatest country on Earth" crap does piss me off.

Well, you can admit that the fundamental idea of the United States of America is great. The one proud thing about America is that it has managed to sustain freedom and remains one of the most democratic and free nations in the world. As many problems as there are in America, we are still undoubtedly quite great. I agree that our arrogance is unjustified, although I believe that the crazy nationalism has more to do with a small minority of people.

Now this stuff does annoy me. At this point in history there are many countries (like the whole of Europe other than some of the Ex-Soviet states and satellities) which have similiar or even more open instutions than exists presently in the United States. I don't believe at this point the United States has a greater degree of freedom (and what does that mean, anyway?) than the Republic of Ireland does.

While I agree with Tweed this statement is incorrect since the US does not have a mechanism for banning movies and video games like Ireland does (no, the NC-17 rating is not banning so shut with your uninformed crap on that.)

[Starbucks Union Thug HokeyPuck]

realamericanstories.com

just saw an ad for that website while watching the Yankee/Red Sox game (both of whom are wearing caps with redwhiteblue logos).  all of the people keep echoing "freedom" like a bunch of brainwashed loons from 1984.  it all reminds me of a quote from counterorder.org

You must be logged in to read this quote.

so the question: why are Americans so blind to the evils of their flag?  why do they willingly glorify all of their institutions?  why do blacks stand up for the national anthem and serve in the military when their parents may well couldn't have even voted?  it just baffles me

No nation is perfect in their conduct, and America by comparison is absolutely one of the if not the best.  Sure, global social stigmas stuck in our country for a long time, but we have been one of the few to actively persue to correct them. 

This country, for all its flaws, is a great one, and a little show of unified patriotism is a good thing IMO.

[Tetro Kornbluth]

Well, the "greatest country on Earth" crap does piss me off.

Well, you can admit that the fundamental idea of the United States of America is great. The one proud thing about America is that it has managed to sustain freedom and remains one of the most democratic and free nations in the world. As many problems as there are in America, we are still undoubtedly quite great. I agree that our arrogance is unjustified, although I believe that the crazy nationalism has more to do with a small minority of people.

Now this stuff does annoy me. At this point in history there are many countries (like the whole of Europe other than some of the Ex-Soviet states and satellities) which have similiar or even more open instutions than exists presently in the United States. I don't believe at this point the United States has a greater degree of freedom (and what does that mean, anyway?) than the Republic of Ireland does.

While I agree with Tweed this statement is incorrect since the US does not have a mechanism for banning movies and video games like Ireland does (no, the NC-17 rating is not banning so shut with your uninformed crap on that.)

You're an idiot.

[Flying Dog]

Oh, come on guys.....show a little nationalism. Trust me, it feels good.

[Ban my account ffs!]

There's a difference between being proud of your country.. it's something completely different to go around thinking you're better than everyone else and that America is somehow by default the best country in the world...

There's a Korean War vet that lives down the road and he has all sorts of war memorabilia in his yard and a big sign with the casualties and wounded soldiers and he had his yard decked out with colorful flowers and lots of American flags... now that's genuine patriotism.

What I cannot stand and it's really repulsive is listening to Republicans try to force patriotism down everybody's throat as they strut around wearing cheap Wal-mart flag imprinted shirts...

Or listening to Republican politicians speak about patriotism and "service to this country" when they've done nothing but ruin this country for the past 8 years... they're up there speaking about the country they "love" while they sell it off to their rich corporate buddies...

Why should we walk around on our nation's birthday trying to out-America everybody else.  What ever happened to a little humility?  Why can't we just take the day off to get together as communities, eat a crap load of food, play some yard games, watch the parade... and derive our pride from that?

[DownWithTheLeft]

While I agree with Tweed this statement is incorrect since the US does not have a mechanism for banning movies and video games like Ireland does (no, the NC-17 rating is not banning so shut with your uninformed crap on that.)

Infringment of PATRIOT Act > Ability to buy GTA IV

[Jake]

I disagree with the degree Tweed goes to, but the general sentiment I agree with. I don't see any significance in the fact I was born American over anywhere else. I'm thankful I was born in the first world, specifically one of the most wealthy countries in the world, because I've been able to have great health care, education, clean public areas, plentiful food, and all the oppurtunity I can ask for. But I don't have all those things because America is so much 'better' than all those other countries. We've just gotten lucky for a myriad of socio-geopolitical reasons to come out nearly on top.

I strongly dislike the blind patriotism that it's de riguer to show off. Open your minds and think about why you're waving a flag or proclaiming that your nation is The Greatest. Maybe actually see if it really is.

[Verily]

I don't like fireworks all that much, but damn it, I love my country, right or wrong.

And that, folks, is exactly the problem.

I generally agree with a lot of what has been said on this thread. On the face of it, there isn't anything wrong with acknowledging that the United States has been a great place and has, through its existence, made other parts of the world better as well. In fact, it would seem to be a good thing. However, such sentiments tend strongly towards cultivating the notion that the United States is somehow superior, or inherently better, neither of which is true, and also creates complacency towards the very goodness we are supposed to epitomize.

Nationalism, even patriotism, is dangerous for that reason. Many people, I would go so far as to say most people, are completely incapable of understanding that past greatness does not imply present greatness or future greatness. Moreover, they tend to believe that pride in one's institutions also means being uncritical of them, as if they cannot be improved. This is not only an American phenomenon, to be certain; it exists in China as cultivated by the government, in Japan as pride in the emperor, manifest by far-right political parties in Europe, etc. But it is an extremely dangerous one, and one I feel we could do without.

I'm just an American by coincidence, nothing more. I'm glad I was lucky to be born somewhere with a high standard of living and a great deal of social freedom, but there are places in the world that are just as good, if not better. And, even if there weren't, it would still be merely coincidence.

[??????????]

Coincidence is fictional concept.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Well, the "greatest country on Earth" crap does piss me off.

Well, you can admit that the fundamental idea of the United States of America is great. The one proud thing about America is that it has managed to sustain freedom and remains one of the most democratic and free nations in the world. As many problems as there are in America, we are still undoubtedly quite great. I agree that our arrogance is unjustified, although I believe that the crazy nationalism has more to do with a small minority of people.

Now this stuff does annoy me. At this point in history there are many countries (like the whole of Europe other than some of the Ex-Soviet states and satellities) which have similiar or even more open instutions than exists presently in the United States. I don't believe at this point the United States has a greater degree of freedom (and what does that mean, anyway?) than the Republic of Ireland does.

While I agree with Tweed this statement is incorrect since the US does not have a mechanism for banning movies and video games like Ireland does (no, the NC-17 rating is not banning so shut with your uninformed crap on that.)

You're an idiot.

No argument = resort to ad hominem.

[Tetro Kornbluth]

Well, the "greatest country on Earth" crap does piss me off.

Well, you can admit that the fundamental idea of the United States of America is great. The one proud thing about America is that it has managed to sustain freedom and remains one of the most democratic and free nations in the world. As many problems as there are in America, we are still undoubtedly quite great. I agree that our arrogance is unjustified, although I believe that the crazy nationalism has more to do with a small minority of people.

Now this stuff does annoy me. At this point in history there are many countries (like the whole of Europe other than some of the Ex-Soviet states and satellities) which have similiar or even more open instutions than exists presently in the United States. I don't believe at this point the United States has a greater degree of freedom (and what does that mean, anyway?) than the Republic of Ireland does.

While I agree with Tweed this statement is incorrect since the US does not have a mechanism for banning movies and video games like Ireland does (no, the NC-17 rating is not banning so shut with your uninformed crap on that.)

You're an idiot.

No argument = resort to ad hominem.

I have an arguement. But everytime I use it you just repeat yourself. Its like speaking to a brick wall. I have admitted long ago I was wrong on the NC-17 thing and yet you keep repeating yourself. I'm glad you get such satisfication of overlording me with your detailed knowledge of a country where you have lived all your life and I've only spend less than 21 days in in total.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Then ignore the NC-17 thing and focus on the rest of my point.

[Јas]

Then ignore the NC-17 thing and focus on the rest of my point.

What exactly was the rest of your point? Ireland has banned 1 videogame and is therefore evil? Certainly freedom of expression is important, but so are other things... access to education, access to healthcare, civic safety, quality of life issues, democracy, moral foreign policy, etc. etc. etc. 

There are many great things about America, the story of America is a fascinating and often a fantastic one. America has given a lot of positives to the world. It mightn't hurt though to acknowledge that America isn't perfect either in it's internal or external conduct. In case you haven't noticed the wear-it-on-your-sleave, jingoistic sense of national superiority which is so often associated with some Amercians is oft found to be less than endearing outside the States.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Then ignore the NC-17 thing and focus on the rest of my point.

What exactly was the rest of your point? Ireland has banned 1 videogame and is therefore evil?

Yes basically. Even one is far too many, even if it's a sequal to a crappy game that's no doubt crappy itself.

http://www.imdb.com/List?certificates=Ireland:(Banned)&&heading=14;Ireland:(Banned)

In case you haven't noticed the wear-it-on-your-sleave, jingoistic sense of national superiority which is so often associated with some Amercians is oft found to be less than endearing outside the States.

WTF? Did you read the rest of my posts in this thread? Did you see that poster I posted on the first page?

[Јas]

Then ignore the NC-17 thing and focus on the rest of my point.

What exactly was the rest of your point? Ireland has banned 1 videogame and is therefore evil?

Yes basically. Even one is far too many, even if it's a sequal to a crappy game that's no doubt crappy itself.

http://www.imdb.com/List?certificates=Ireland:(Banned)&&heading=14;Ireland:(Banned)

I see, so banning 1 video game makes us evil but yet you'll stand over the US as an unblemished record for free expression?

FTR, I disagree with banning the game (as I've explained before), but I respect that the decision was a considered one and made out of the best of intentions. To label the country 'evil' though is patently ridiculous.

In case you haven't noticed the wear-it-on-your-sleave, jingoistic sense of national superiority which is so often associated with some Amercians is oft found to be less than endearing outside the States.

WTF? Did you read the rest of my posts in this thread? Did you see that poster I posted on the first page?

It still applies, it just so happens that, in this particular instance, it applies through the rubric of 'censorship' rather than a more general consideration.

[elcorazon]

i personally despise fireworks.

but i love god, america, the flag and good ol' family values.

fireworks are ok, but I think they're an incredible waste of money, energy, etc.
God, eh, whatever, America - I don't get why anyone would love a piece of land - Flag, I don't get why anyone would love a piece of cloth, not even sure how to define family values, so meh.

[YRABNNRM]

I celebrate July 4th because it is the day that the world joined together to defeat the alien invaders.

[??????????]

i personally despise fireworks.

but i love god, america, the flag and good ol' family values.

fireworks are ok, but I think they're an incredible waste of money, energy, etc.
God, eh, whatever, America - I don't get why anyone would love a piece of land - Flag, I don't get why anyone would love a piece of cloth, not even sure how to define family values, so meh.

Your attitude, which is becoming prevalent, is the reason this nation will never last another 75 years.

[MasterJedi]

I guarentee people who hate America and what it stands for, like Tweed, would hate other countries even more if they moved their.

[Alcon]

This topic was pretty mind-numbing, except for a few posts (especially Jake's and Verily's).  As far as I'm concerned July 4th is pretty much one big sports event.  People take pride in a cause that they're associated with mostly by coincidence.  It gets creepy when it serves as proxy-pride because personal restraint disallows self-promotion.  When that happens, or when it bleeds into nationalism, it can get scary.  Mostly it's harmless and we blow stuff up.  Better we blow stuff up harmlessly than the alternative, I guess.

But, really, Canada seems just as nice and I think we have better things to form our identities around.

[Verily]

Coincidence is fictional concept.

Well, yes, in a truly scientific understanding of the world. But that's neither here nor there for this discussion; I clearly did not have control over my location of birth, nor did anyone intentionally birth me where I was born (except as far as my parents had children somewhere where they lived, but I as an individual was not the necessary intent).

You could certainly make an argument that the forces of the Universe dictated from the very point of the beginning that the United States would exist, and I would be born there. That's a strongly fatalist approach that many people would be uncomfortable with, even the deeply religious (as mankind is supposed to have free will), but one to which I actually do subscribe. However, it's not particularly relevant to the discussion, or even to life generally: If forces determined billions of years ago dictate my exact character, no person, living or dead, has any control over those forces. So we might as well label it coincidence and get it over with.

[Ebowed]

I guarentee people who hate America and what it stands for, like Tweed, would hate other countries even more if they moved their.

Unlikely if they moved to Canada, Europe, Australia, New Zealand, etc.

There will be good and bad things about any place you may end up living.  There are many great things about America.  The blind, rabid patriotism that afflicts many of its inhabitants is definitely not one of them.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Then ignore the NC-17 thing and focus on the rest of my point.

What exactly was the rest of your point? Ireland has banned 1 videogame and is therefore evil?

Yes basically. Even one is far too many, even if it's a sequal to a crappy game that's no doubt crappy itself.

http://www.imdb.com/List?certificates=Ireland:(Banned)&&heading=14;Ireland:(Banned)

I see, so banning 1 video game makes us evil but yet you'll stand over the US as an unblemished record for free expression?

No, but I've simply pointed out things are never banned here. There's an advantage.

FTR, I disagree with banning the game (as I've explained before), but I respect that the decision was a considered one and made out of the best of intentions. To label the country 'evil' though is patently ridiculous.

What that's f**king ridiculous. You might as well say the same thing about Iran banning material!

Banning media is NEVER acceptable. Period, end of story, and thus it should never be respected or accepted. It is always evil and a wrong thing to do.

[MasterJedi]

I guarentee people who hate America and what it stands for, like Tweed, would hate other countries even more if they moved their.

Unlikely if they moved to Canada, Europe, Australia, New Zealand, etc.

There will be good and bad things about any place you may end up living.  There are many great things about America.  The blind, rabid patriotism that afflicts many of its inhabitants is definitely not one of them.

No he would, just like most other people. They myth that those places are so much better would get destroyed really quickly after they moved.

[Alcon]

No he would, just like most other people. They myth that those places are so much better would get destroyed really quickly after they moved.

The second part of your sentence makes sense to me.  But you actually think that anyone who moved to Canada would "hate" it once they got used to it?  I assume you've been to Canada.  What secrets are they hiding behind their facade of being nearly identical to us?