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Author Topic: what if there was no pearl harbour  (Read 12702 times)
dunn
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« on: February 18, 2004, 07:38:04 am »
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japan does not attack us, us do not join the war. will they would join later, would japan ruled east asaia today? would hitler won in europe?
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JohnFKennedy
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« Reply #1 on: February 18, 2004, 08:01:12 am »
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I reckon Roosevelt would have eventually entered the war, although in doing so, he could have jeopardised his chances of election in 1944 and possibly have lost it....
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« Reply #2 on: February 18, 2004, 08:22:48 am »
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FDR wanted to get us into that war and he say no other option, but he couldn't get congress to authorize force before Pearl Harbor.  My guess is he somehow would have found a way to enter WWII.
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« Reply #3 on: February 18, 2004, 09:09:03 am »
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FDR was getting us into war come hell or highwater.

He ordered U.S. warships to conduct missions against German U-boats.

We fired first when the U.S. destroyers Greer and Kearney were attacked.

He used made-up British intelligence about Hitler's plans, which didn't exist, for the conquest of South America and the Nazification of Christianity.

He sent picket ships out into the path of the Japanese fleet in the hope they would be sunk.

He gave Lord Halifax secret, but unconstitutional, assurances America would defend His Majesty's colonies in the Pacific.

He spurned a secret peace offer from Japan's Prince Konoye and issued a secret ultimatum to Tojo's regime on Nov. 26, 1941.

As Secretary of War Henry Stimson wrote in his diary two weeks before Pearl Harbor, "We should maneuver them into ... firing the first shot."
« Last Edit: February 18, 2004, 09:09:24 am by NHPolitico »Logged

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« Reply #4 on: February 18, 2004, 12:09:27 pm »
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FDR was getting us into war come hell or highwater.

He ordered U.S. warships to conduct missions against German U-boats.

We fired first when the U.S. destroyers Greer and Kearney were attacked.

He used made-up British intelligence about Hitler's plans, which didn't exist, for the conquest of South America and the Nazification of Christianity.

He sent picket ships out into the path of the Japanese fleet in the hope they would be sunk.

He gave Lord Halifax secret, but unconstitutional, assurances America would defend His Majesty's colonies in the Pacific.

He spurned a secret peace offer from Japan's Prince Konoye and issued a secret ultimatum to Tojo's regime on Nov. 26, 1941.

As Secretary of War Henry Stimson wrote in his diary two weeks before Pearl Harbor, "We should maneuver them into ... firing the first shot."
It sounds that you think that America's participation in WWII was somehow wrong. Or did I misunderstand?

And it's sure that Christianity was under nazi menace during Third Reich. Nazism is (like communism) deeply anti-christian ideology.
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NHPolitico
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« Reply #5 on: February 18, 2004, 09:13:56 pm »
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FDR was getting us into war come hell or highwater.

He ordered U.S. warships to conduct missions against German U-boats.

We fired first when the U.S. destroyers Greer and Kearney were attacked.

He used made-up British intelligence about Hitler's plans, which didn't exist, for the conquest of South America and the Nazification of Christianity.

He sent picket ships out into the path of the Japanese fleet in the hope they would be sunk.

He gave Lord Halifax secret, but unconstitutional, assurances America would defend His Majesty's colonies in the Pacific.

He spurned a secret peace offer from Japan's Prince Konoye and issued a secret ultimatum to Tojo's regime on Nov. 26, 1941.

As Secretary of War Henry Stimson wrote in his diary two weeks before Pearl Harbor, "We should maneuver them into ... firing the first shot."
It sounds that you think that America's participation in WWII was somehow wrong. Or did I misunderstand?

And it's sure that Christianity was under nazi menace during Third Reich. Nazism is (like communism) deeply anti-christian ideology.

No, just that FDR would have gotten us into WW2 regardless of what happened in Hawaii.

I said that FDR and British intelligence said that Hitler sought to infiltrate and absorb Christianity with Nazism, which is sort of the opposite of what you thought I said.
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« Reply #6 on: February 19, 2004, 12:05:09 am »
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Hitler's ultimate goal was to replace the Christian churches in Germany with a kind of neo-pagan church.
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« Reply #7 on: February 19, 2004, 02:09:56 am »
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FDR was getting us into war come hell or highwater.

He ordered U.S. warships to conduct missions against German U-boats.

We fired first when the U.S. destroyers Greer and Kearney were attacked.

He used made-up British intelligence about Hitler's plans, which didn't exist, for the conquest of South America and the Nazification of Christianity.

He sent picket ships out into the path of the Japanese fleet in the hope they would be sunk.

He gave Lord Halifax secret, but unconstitutional, assurances America would defend His Majesty's colonies in the Pacific.

He spurned a secret peace offer from Japan's Prince Konoye and issued a secret ultimatum to Tojo's regime on Nov. 26, 1941.

As Secretary of War Henry Stimson wrote in his diary two weeks before Pearl Harbor, "We should maneuver them into ... firing the first shot."
It sounds that you think that America's participation in WWII was somehow wrong. Or did I misunderstand?

And it's sure that Christianity was under nazi menace during Third Reich. Nazism is (like communism) deeply anti-christian ideology.

No, just that FDR would have gotten us into WW2 regardless of what happened in Hawaii.

I said that FDR and British intelligence said that Hitler sought to infiltrate and absorb Christianity with Nazism, which is sort of the opposite of what you thought I said.
Sorry. My misunderstanding.
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Gustaf
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« Reply #8 on: February 19, 2004, 11:52:58 am »
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Hitler's ultimate goal was to replace the Christian churches in Germany with a kind of neo-pagan church.

The Christian Democrats and the Social Democrats were the main political opponents of the Nazis in Germany and Austria. The liberal parties of these countries have been nazi-leaning, which is weird.
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NHPolitico
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« Reply #9 on: February 19, 2004, 02:18:17 pm »
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FDR was getting us into war come hell or highwater.

He ordered U.S. warships to conduct missions against German U-boats.

We fired first when the U.S. destroyers Greer and Kearney were attacked.

He used made-up British intelligence about Hitler's plans, which didn't exist, for the conquest of South America and the Nazification of Christianity.

He sent picket ships out into the path of the Japanese fleet in the hope they would be sunk.

He gave Lord Halifax secret, but unconstitutional, assurances America would defend His Majesty's colonies in the Pacific.

He spurned a secret peace offer from Japan's Prince Konoye and issued a secret ultimatum to Tojo's regime on Nov. 26, 1941.

As Secretary of War Henry Stimson wrote in his diary two weeks before Pearl Harbor, "We should maneuver them into ... firing the first shot."
It sounds that you think that America's participation in WWII was somehow wrong. Or did I misunderstand?

And it's sure that Christianity was under nazi menace during Third Reich. Nazism is (like communism) deeply anti-christian ideology.

No, just that FDR would have gotten us into WW2 regardless of what happened in Hawaii.

I said that FDR and British intelligence said that Hitler sought to infiltrate and absorb Christianity with Nazism, which is sort of the opposite of what you thought I said.
Sorry. My misunderstanding.

No problem. It's all cool.
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NHPolitico
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« Reply #10 on: February 19, 2004, 02:23:08 pm »
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Hitler's ultimate goal was to replace the Christian churches in Germany with a kind of neo-pagan church.

The Christian Democrats and the Social Democrats were the main political opponents of the Nazis in Germany and Austria. The liberal parties of these countries have been nazi-leaning, which is weird.

Margaret Sanger, a US liberal icon, rationalized birth control as a means of reducing genetically transmitted mental or physical defects, and at times supported sterilization for the mentally incompetent. Sound familiar?
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Gustaf
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« Reply #11 on: February 19, 2004, 02:30:39 pm »
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Hitler's ultimate goal was to replace the Christian churches in Germany with a kind of neo-pagan church.

The Christian Democrats and the Social Democrats were the main political opponents of the Nazis in Germany and Austria. The liberal parties of these countries have been nazi-leaning, which is weird.

Margaret Sanger, a US liberal icon, rationalized birth control as a means of reducing genetically transmitted mental or physical defects, and at times supported sterilization for the mentally incompetent. Sound familiar?

Well, yeah...but liberalism as I view it is very far from national socialism...I am usually content with the fact that the liberal conservatism I embrace is pretty much the exact opposite of national socailism... Smiley
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MAS117
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« Reply #12 on: February 24, 2004, 06:33:50 pm »
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here we go again with these what ifs
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« Reply #13 on: March 01, 2004, 10:09:44 pm »
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In my humble opinion even if Pearl Harbor had never been attacked World War 2 would have still had Major U.S. Involvement (we were already well involved with Lend-Lease). Roosevelt was looking to get us into the war to help boost the economy. Roosevelt knew the attack was coming and chose to ignore intelligence that warned him about it 24 hours in advance. My proof of that are two examples : Both US Carriers were sent out on manuevers and a radar station picked up the Japanese fighters 3-4 hours before the attack and the high command dismissed it even though the experts said the radar wasnt lying. That tells you that FDR knew an attack was coming but I give him credit that sending the carriers out saved us and also the Japanese made a fatal mistake in not destroying the fuel tanks that were at Pearl Harbor. Our two biggest mistakes were not forming an alliance with China when they offered it to us after the Second World War. I still cant believe Truman rejected him. And not immediately driving the Soviets out of Eastern Europe. Just my thoughts.
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« Reply #14 on: March 02, 2004, 01:14:07 pm »
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In my humble opinion even if Pearl Harbor had never been attacked World War 2 would have still had Major U.S. Involvement (we were already well involved with Lend-Lease). Roosevelt was looking to get us into the war to help boost the economy. Roosevelt knew the attack was coming and chose to ignore intelligence that warned him about it 24 hours in advance. My proof of that are two examples : Both US Carriers were sent out on manuevers and a radar station picked up the Japanese fighters 3-4 hours before the attack and the high command dismissed it even though the experts said the radar wasnt lying. That tells you that FDR knew an attack was coming but I give him credit that sending the carriers out saved us and also the Japanese made a fatal mistake in not destroying the fuel tanks that were at Pearl Harbor. Our two biggest mistakes were not forming an alliance with China when they offered it to us after the Second World War. I still cant believe Truman rejected him. And not immediately driving the Soviets out of Eastern Europe. Just my thoughts.

I've heard these things before. Alliance with China, I suppose you're referring to Chiang Kai-Shek? The Guomintang killed more people then Hitler did, but I guess they would still have been better than the Communists. I wouldn't have wanted to be allied to him though, but that's my opinion. I think prolonging WWII would have been tough. I sympathize with the sentiment and everything, but I think it's very unrealistic.
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« Reply #15 on: March 03, 2004, 01:58:12 am »
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I agree with you sir. But I believe the Chinese Communists extended their hand to us and Trumans rejected it. As for the prolonging WW2 I agree it probably would have been unrealistic. But it would have probably given a good change to history. Just a what if.
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« Reply #16 on: March 03, 2004, 10:43:39 am »
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I agree with you sir. But I believe the Chinese Communists extended their hand to us and Trumans rejected it. As for the prolonging WW2 I agree it probably would have been unrealistic. But it would have probably given a good change to history. Just a what if.

Just to make this clear, when was this alliance proposed, before or after 1949?

My point was that there was a lot of weariness and war exhaustion by 1945, and a lot of joy at the victory. I am not sure how such a war would have played out. The Soviet Union and its leadership was relatively popular at that time, both domestically and abroad. To fight them could have been tough. If they had been attacked it might also have increased sympathy for them rather a lot and made the war harder. I am not saying the US would have lost, but I am not convinced that they could have won. All of this supposes that they haven't got nukes yet, of course.
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« Reply #17 on: March 03, 2004, 11:25:51 am »
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I agree, and I believe Communist China outstreched the hand for an alliance either in late 45 or early 46. Yes nukes would have definately added another problem for either side, although I believe Russia didnt detonate their first nuke till 1949? Correct?
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« Reply #18 on: March 03, 2004, 11:38:32 am »
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I agree, and I believe Communist China outstreched the hand for an alliance either in late 45 or early 46. Yes nukes would have definately added another problem for either side, although I believe Russia didnt detonate their first nuke till 1949? Correct?

British Communist scientist gave it to the Russians, but I'm not sure of the exact date. Bu there was a period when only the West had nukes. I have to go now, will get back ti this later...
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« Reply #19 on: March 07, 2004, 09:42:27 pm »
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japan does not attack us, us do not join the war. will they would join later, would japan ruled east asaia today? would hitler won in europe?


FDR would have practically paid the Japanese to attack us to get us into WW2.

Militarily, we were woefully prepared for WW2. Had we waited later than we did, it probably would have been nearly too late to meaningfully help out the Allies.  We may have just decided the best course of action would have been to worry about protecting our shores. We would have been up to the task, in my opinion, and wouldn't have had to fear falling to the Axis.   I think a dominance of Japan in Asia and a dominance of Germany in Europe wouldn't have necessarily been as bad for the US as what actually resulted from WW2-- Middle Eastern anger against the US and the Cold War, neither of which would have happened under the new scenario.
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« Reply #20 on: March 07, 2004, 10:45:27 pm »
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Who's to say the Axis powers even cared about invading the U.S. before we came in the war? The evidence is minimal of any plans for a pre-war invasion. It wasnt very feasible for either the Germans or Japanese
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« Reply #21 on: March 08, 2004, 10:08:55 am »
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I don't think the reason for the Middle East being anti-American was your involvement in WWII. And a Cold War against Germany could very well have occured. And condemning, among others, 5 million Jews to death would have been bad, imo.
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« Reply #22 on: March 08, 2004, 10:58:46 am »
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I don't think the reason for the Middle East being anti-American was your involvement in WWII. And a Cold War against Germany could very well have occured. And condemning, among others, 5 million Jews to death would have been bad, imo.

The reason for the Middle East being so messed up has its roots in British Colonialism and the break-up of the Ottoman Empire after World War 1. The allies of WW1 didn't know when to leave well enough alone and did a lot of damage to national pride and helped inflame World War 2. Yes, I do blame the French and the British for inflaming World War 2, more so the French for meddling in the Rhineland and the way they treated German citizens and destroyed the German economy between the wars. Iraq fought against the British in the very early part of World War two but were quickly taken over. Many of the wars and conflicts of the 20th Century can be attributed to the Colonialism of the French and British in the mid to late 19th Century. Examples would be Vietnam, Palestinian Mandate, Egypt, other parts of S.E. Asia, Africa. Often the British and French just ditched their colonies and left them with barely anything that resembled a stable government. In my opinion neither side was really in the "right" during World War 1. I believe Austria was defending itself after the assasination of Archduke Ferdinand and Austrias' allies jumped in to support them.
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« Reply #23 on: March 08, 2004, 11:03:42 am »
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I don't think the reason for the Middle East being anti-American was your involvement in WWII. And a Cold War against Germany could very well have occured. And condemning, among others, 5 million Jews to death would have been bad, imo.

The reason for the Middle East being so messed up has its roots in British Colonialism and the break-up of the Ottoman Empire after World War 1. The allies of WW1 didn't know when to leave well enough alone and did a lot of damage to national pride and helped inflame World War 2. Yes, I do blame the French and the British for inflaming World War 2, more so the French for meddling in the Rhineland and the way they treated German citizens and destroyed the German economy between the wars. Iraq fought against the British in the very early part of World War two but were quickly taken over. Many of the wars and conflicts of the 20th Century can be attributed to the Colonialism of the French and British in the mid to late 19th Century. Examples would be Vietnam, Palestinian Mandate, Egypt, other parts of S.E. Asia, Africa. Often the British and French just ditched their colonies and left them with barely anything that resembled a stable government. In my opinion neither side was really in the "right" during World War 1. I believe Austria was defending itself after the assasination of Archduke Ferdinand and Austrias' allies jumped in to support them.

Lot of stuff here...the prime reason for the Middle East being messed up is the fact that they messed up. But it's obvious that Western powers made the situaiton worse to a degree. In particular the fact that the Arabs were promised independence from Turkey in WWI but didn't get it.

It's also obvious that the French anti-Germany policy of the 20s did a lot to help Hitler to power. once again the burden of respnosobility must still be on those who actually started the war though, imo.

When it comes to WWI, everyone was looking for a war and has a share in the blame. But Austria was wrong, the demands they put on Serbia were meant to rob the Serbs of their independence, imo.
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« Reply #24 on: March 08, 2004, 11:37:31 am »
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I don't think the reason for the Middle East being anti-American was your involvement in WWII. And a Cold War against Germany could very well have occured. And condemning, among others, 5 million Jews to death would have been bad, imo.

It was about 6.3 million
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