Smid's Diplomacy Game Thread #1

[minionofmidas]

Somebody destroy Germany. Please?

No. We want to play with it a little longer before we kill it.

[Хahar 🤔]

Somebody destroy Germany. Please?

No. We want to play with it a little longer before we kill it.

I never recorded that many NMRs...

[minionofmidas]

Somebody destroy Germany. Please?

No. We want to play with it a little longer before we kill it.

I never recorded that many NMRs...

You're not a mouse.

[Хahar 🤔]

Somebody destroy Germany. Please?

No. We want to play with it a little longer before we kill it.

I never recorded that many NMRs...

You're not a mouse.

Ah. You got me there.

[Smid]

Mikado advises he shall retreat to the Eastern Mediterranean.

[Smid]

Rightie-o. Since it's twenty-five minutes past midnight, Sunday my time and I'm still awake, I have adjudicated the moves and shall post them now to give everyone as much time on Sunday to update me with necessary build orders. There are no retreats required.

Firstly, here is the map showing everyone's moves:



The moves were thus:

France
F Brest - Mid-Atlantic Ocean
A Burgundy Hold
A Marseilles Hold
F Mid-Atlantic Ocean - Spain (sc)
A Munich Supports A Berlin Hold
A Ruhr Hold

Russia
A Ankara - Rumania
A Armenia - Smyrna (*Bounce*)
F Baltic Sea - Denmark (*Bounce*)
F Black Sea Convoys A Ankara - Rumania
A Budapest Supports A Vienna - Trieste
A Bulgaria Supports A Ankara - Rumania (*Cut*)
A Prussia Supports A Berlin Hold
F Sweden Supports F Baltic Sea - Denmark
A Vienna - Trieste

Italy
A Albania - Trieste (*Fails*)
F Eastern Mediterranean - Smyrna (*Bounce*)
F Greece - Bulgaria (sc) (*Fails*)
A Rome - Venice (*Fails*)
A Serbia Supports A Albania - Trieste
F Tyrrhenian Sea - Naples

Germany
A Berlin NMR

Austria-Hungary


Turkey
F Adriatic Sea Supports A Vienna - Trieste
A Constantinople Supports A Bulgaria
F Ionian Sea - Tyrrhenian Sea
A Venice - Rome (*Fails*)

England
F Belgium - Holland
A Edinburgh - Norway
F English Channel - Belgium
F Holland - Helgoland Bight
A Kiel Supports F North Sea - Denmark
F London - North Sea (*Fails*)
F North Sea - Denmark (*Bounce*)
F Norwegian Sea Convoys A Edinburgh - Norway

The moves therefore end up looking thus:



And finalised, before builds, the map appears thus:



Russia receives two builds, Turkey loses one, Italy loses one. The current tally is:

F  R   I  G  A  T  E
6 11 5  1  0  3  8

[Хahar 🤔]

Germany's still in?

That said, the position of Turkey on the map looks very weird.

[Smid]

Builds/Disbands are in. Here's what's happening:

Russia is building F StP (sc) and A Mos

Italy is disbanding A Alb

Turkey is disbanding A Con.

[muon2]

One pattern that has appeared in this game seems to be a frequent occurence in many games, and I thought it worth a comment. Italy made the decision to go into Austria rather than head west toward France. There is little doubt that with aggression into the Balkans from either Turkey or Russia in the early moves, Italy can expand faster into Austria. Yet, as seems often the case, Italy runs into a wall from either Turkey or Russia after Austria's demise then must fall back in the mid-game.

In a few games I've seen Italy allied with Austria, and it works well for the Italians. The downside for Italy is that growth is slow in the early years. The upside when I have seen it is that Austria keeps up the fight with Turkey or Russia much longer into the game giving Italy time to score big against France or stab Austria at an opportune time later in the game. The big risk is the huge trust needed since Italy and Austria have adjacent home supply centers.

[minionofmidas]

I tried that once and got horribly stabbed by Austria who went on to win in a 4-way tie with Russia, England and France.

[Smid]

One pattern that has appeared in this game seems to be a frequent occurence in many games, and I thought it worth a comment. Italy made the decision to go into Austria rather than head west toward France. There is little doubt that with aggression into the Balkans from either Turkey or Russia in the early moves, Italy can expand faster into Austria. Yet, as seems often the case, Italy runs into a wall from either Turkey or Russia after Austria's demise then must fall back in the mid-game.

In a few games I've seen Italy allied with Austria, and it works well for the Italians. The downside for Italy is that growth is slow in the early years. The upside when I have seen it is that Austria keeps up the fight with Turkey or Russia much longer into the game giving Italy time to score big against France or stab Austria at an opportune time later in the game. The big risk is the huge trust needed since Italy and Austria have adjacent home supply centers.

I think much of this idea comes from the much-documented Lepanto opening for Italy. Apparently this is the article initially detailing this opening:

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Source: http://www.diplom.org/DipPouch/Zine/S1998M/Birsan/Lepanto.html

I think it's also quite difficult for Italians to expand west due to the fact that Switzerland allowing only a single land province providing access to France. Italy is only slightly less waterlocked than England, but England starts with two fleets. I think this is one thing that certainly puts Italy in a difficult position.

[Gustaf]

It's interesting that Italy is considered so poor. When I played this with my friends we were basically all in agreement that Austria was the worse choice. But I suppose I must bow to the Diplomacy authorities.

[minionofmidas]

It's interesting that Italy is considered so poor. When I played this with my friends we were basically all in agreement that Austria was the worse choice. But I suppose I must bow to the Diplomacy authorities.

No, no, you're quite right. Austria is heavy favorite to go out first - although apparently, Italy is just as crappy when it comes to winning outright.

[Smid]

It's interesting that Italy is considered so poor. When I played this with my friends we were basically all in agreement that Austria was the worse choice. But I suppose I must bow to the Diplomacy authorities.

Germany and Austria are both trapped in the middle of the map, potentially with enemies on all sides. That can present opportunities, too, though. It's really just a bit of a trade-off - early defence vs long term expansion.

[muon2]

I think it's also quite difficult for Italians to expand west due to the fact that Switzerland allowing only a single land province providing access to France. Italy is only slightly less waterlocked than England, but England starts with two fleets. I think this is one thing that certainly puts Italy in a difficult position.

In retrospect this would have been a game where westward expansion would likely have worked. The first turn disorder in France would have been an opportunity. Similar situations can occur with an active France facing strong attacks from England and/or Germany. The Lepanto opening year moves go for Tunis only, and this gives Italy the option of going east or west in 1902.

[Erc]

Italy does have more potential than is commonly recognized.

A couple fun strategies that I personally enjoy:

The Key Lepanto...Italy makes noises that he wants Austria dead, moves into Trieste in S1901, while secretly negotiating with the Austrians.  Meanwhile, in the Fall, he moves into Serbia, while the Austrians take Greece, putting Italy and Austria in a very good position to take out an unsuspecting Turkey.  Of course, this requires some serious trust on the part of the Austrians to let you move into Trieste.  I once had a more elaborate version of this pulled on me as Turkey, where the "phony war" between the Austrians and Italians didn't end until 1903---needless to say I didn't last past 1905.

Another possibility, which is unfortunately never considered, is a long-lasting Italy-Turkey alliance.  Problem is, most players dismiss it out of hand---though not without good reason...Turkey needs to get out of his corner, and it's hard to do that without fleets, and any fleets in the Med are a threat to Italy.  However, if a rock-solid relationship can be established, I've seen Italy and Turkey together sweep the board.  Turkey has more potential to stab Italy than vice versa, which puts Italy at a disadvantage in the long run, but you can't get around that.  Unfortunately, it's usually very hard to try to establish that level of trust (on either side).  If the Turk proposes it, the Italian will assume the Turk will just turn on him by 1903 when Austria is dead and the presumed Russo-Turkish Juggernaut starts rolling.  If the Italian proposes it, the Turk may naturally think the Italian is crazy or has some Lepanto up his sleeve and may refuse to trust him.  As a result, I didn't even bother proposing it in this game (my apologies to Mikado).

[Lunar]

It's interesting that Italy is considered so poor. When I played this with my friends we were basically all in agreement that Austria was the worse choice. But I suppose I must bow to the Diplomacy authorities.

I remember looking it up, and I think Italy has the lowest "win" rate out of all of the countries and Austria has the highest elimination rate.

[Gustaf]

Italy does have more potential than is commonly recognized.

A couple fun strategies that I personally enjoy:

The Key Lepanto...Italy makes noises that he wants Austria dead, moves into Trieste in S1901, while secretly negotiating with the Austrians.  Meanwhile, in the Fall, he moves into Serbia, while the Austrians take Greece, putting Italy and Austria in a very good position to take out an unsuspecting Turkey.  Of course, this requires some serious trust on the part of the Austrians to let you move into Trieste.  I once had a more elaborate version of this pulled on me as Turkey, where the "phony war" between the Austrians and Italians didn't end until 1903---needless to say I didn't last past 1905.

Another possibility, which is unfortunately never considered, is a long-lasting Italy-Turkey alliance.  Problem is, most players dismiss it out of hand---though not without good reason...Turkey needs to get out of his corner, and it's hard to do that without fleets, and any fleets in the Med are a threat to Italy.  However, if a rock-solid relationship can be established, I've seen Italy and Turkey together sweep the board.  Turkey has more potential to stab Italy than vice versa, which puts Italy at a disadvantage in the long run, but you can't get around that.  Unfortunately, it's usually very hard to try to establish that level of trust (on either side).  If the Turk proposes it, the Italian will assume the Turk will just turn on him by 1903 when Austria is dead and the presumed Russo-Turkish Juggernaut starts rolling.  If the Italian proposes it, the Turk may naturally think the Italian is crazy or has some Lepanto up his sleeve and may refuse to trust him.  As a result, I didn't even bother proposing it in this game (my apologies to Mikado).

Last (and only) time I played I was Turkey and I did ally with Italy. Turkey, Italy and Russia worked together to dispatch Austria fairly quickly. I did betray Italy after that though but it was due to the fact that they played their cards wrong and were being overrun by France and Germany working together anyway.

[The Mikado]

I've refrained from weighing in on this conversation, but if you're not a player and you want to understand why I chose the opening I did, just PM me.

[ilikeverin]

I once shepherded a Germany-Italy-Austria alliance to victory (I believe I was Germany).  That took a lot of trust on all sides, but was worth it

That's what I tried in the game of Diplomacy I played here, to much less success (that said, I did survive longer than Austria in this game; I was still alive when the game died due to non-response!  sure, my only Army was in Moscow or something, but I was alive!)

[Smid]

The moves on the map appear thus:



The orders are:

France
A Burgundy Hold
A Marseilles - Piedmont
F Mid-Atlantic Ocean - Western Mediterranean
A Munich - Tyrolia
A Ruhr - Munich
F Spain (sc) - Gulf of Lyon

Russia
A Armenia - Smyrna
F Baltic Sea Supports F Sweden - Denmark
F Black Sea - Constantinople
A Budapest - Serbia
A Bulgaria Supports A Budapest - Serbia
A Moscow - St Petersburg (*Bounce*)
A Prussia - Livonia
A Rumania Supports A Bulgaria
F St Petersburg (sc) - Gulf of Bothnia
F Sweden - Denmark (*Bounce*)
A Trieste Supports A Budapest - Serbia

Italy
F Eastern Mediterranean - Aegean Sea
F Greece Supports F Eastern Mediterranean - Aegean Sea
F Naples - Ionian Sea
A Rome - Venice (*Fails*)
A Serbia - Trieste (*Dislodged*)

Germany
A Berlin NMR

Austria-Hungary
No units

Turkey
F Adriatic Sea - Apulia
F Tyrrhenian Sea - Tuscany
A Venice Supports F Adriatic Sea - Apulia (*Cut*)

England
F Belgium - Holland (*Fails*)
F Helgoland Bight Supports A Kiel - Denmark
F Holland - Kiel (*Fails*)
A Kiel - Denmark (*Bounce*)
F London - North Sea
F North Sea - Skagerrak
A Norway - St Petersburg (*Bounce*)
F Norwegian Sea - Barents Sea

Therefore, the moves resolved appear thus:



Retreats are required for the Italian army in Serbia, although there's only one province it can retreat to... Finalised, but before retreats, the map appears thus:

[Smid]

That Russian fleet moving to Constantinople reminds me of:

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=vsQrKZcYtqg

[Smid]

I haven't heard from Mikado regarding the retreat from Serbia, but there's only one province that army can retreat to (Albania). I therefore think it's appropriate to carry through with that retreat:

[Smid]

It is presently 12:22 Melbourne time (daylight savings), so I'm now in the process of adjudicating Fall 1905 moves, because I'll be out for most of tomorrow. I'll post it here as soon as I finish, and I'll do all the retreats tomorrow afternoon/evening when I'm home. If possible, I'll do builds then, too, but as it looks like there'll be some retreats which may affect number of builds and so on, they may need to be tied over. I'll advise on that shortly.

[Smid]

Move orders were thus:



France
A Burgundy - Munich
F Gulf of Lyon - Piedmont (*Fails*)
A Munich - Bohemia
A Piedmont - Venice (*Fails*)
A Tyrolia Supports A Albania - Trieste
F Western Mediterranean - Gulf of Lyon (*Fails*)

Russia
F Baltic Sea - Kiel (*Fails*)
A Bulgaria - Greece
F Constantinople - Bulgaria (sc) (*Bounce*)
F Gulf of Bothnia Convoys A Livonia - Finland
A Livonia - Finland
A Moscow - St Petersburg (*Bounce*)
A Rumania - Budapest
A Serbia Supports A Bulgaria - Greece
A Smyrna Hold
F Sweden - Norway (*Disbanded*)
A Trieste Supports A Venice (*Dislodged*)

Italy
F Aegean Sea - Bulgaria (sc) (*Bounce*)
A Albania - Trieste
F Greece Supports F Aegean Sea - Bulgaria (sc) (*Dislodged*)
F Ionian Sea - Apulia
A Rome, Supports A Piedmont - Venice (*Cut*)

Germany
A Berlin NMR

Austria-Hungary


Turkey
F Apulia - Naples
F Tuscany - Rome (*Fails*)
A Venice Supports F Tuscany - Rome (*Cut*)

England
F Barents Sea - St Petersburg (nc) (*Bounce*)
F Belgium - North Sea
F Helgoland Bight Supports F North Sea - Denmark
F Holland Supports A Kiel
A Kiel Supports F North Sea - Denmark (*Cut*)
F North Sea - Denmark
A Norway Supports F Skagerrak - Sweden
F Skagerrak - Sweden

The moves were resolved thus:



Russia's fleet in Sweden was disbanded as it was dislodged and there were no provinces to which it could retreat.

There are two retreats required:

The Russian army in Trieste and the Italian fleet in Greece.

The map shows the current status of the game:



I'll sort out retreats, and possibly builds in the evening (Sunday evening, my time), and builds if I have everyone's. Since there'll probably be some builds that will be based on the outcome of the retreats, I suspect I won't end up posting them at the same time. I'll advise of builds when I have them all in, but the map probably won't be able to be uploaded until Monday evening (my time) since I don't have Realpolitik on my work computer.