Issue '04: Education

[A18]

That's part of wealth.

What if a rich guy likes me as more than a guy who's just as talented/smart/hard-working (as if anyone could compare) and gives me a $3,000,000 check. Can I spend it or does this wealth not exist either?

[ATFFL]

There you go then. You don't believe my wealth exists. Dollars are supposed to be able to get you things...that's kinda the point.

I never said that. More dollars should get you more products and more services.

But more dollars should not buy you more opportunity to attain more dollars in the future. All should have the ability to attain what you have if they are as smart as you, as creative as you, and as hard-working as you.

You must despise the stock market and entrepreneurship.

[Nym90]

That's part of wealth.

What if a rich guy likes me as more than a guy who's just as talented/smart/hard-working (as if anyone could compare) and gives me a $3,000,000 check. Can I spend it or does this wealth not exist either?

Of course he has the right to give you the money. But public universities, paid for by public tax dollars, should not have a bias in their admissions in favor of those who have more wealth.

[A18]

I agree. You should get in on merit only.

[Nym90]

There you go then. You don't believe my wealth exists. Dollars are supposed to be able to get you things...that's kinda the point.

I never said that. More dollars should get you more products and more services.

But more dollars should not buy you more opportunity to attain more dollars in the future. All should have the ability to attain what you have if they are as smart as you, as creative as you, and as hard-working as you.

You must despise the stock market and entrepreneurship.

Not at all. I want to encourage entrepreneurship, but those who do not have the money to afford to start a business cannot become entrepreneurs. You have to have money to make money; those who would theoretically be the best business owners may not be able to acquire one due to the lack of money. Society would be more productive if those who were the smartest, hardest working, and most capable were the business owners, not the ones who have the most wealth, if the two happen in some circumstances not to be one and the same.

It's worth noting that I'm referring to education here, and promoting the opportunity to get a future job. Since the primary function of education is to equip people to get good jobs, the opportunity to get a good job should be as close to equal as possible for all, based soley on merit and not on income.

Government funded institutions such as public universities should do their best to encourage equal opportunity, since they are paid for by public tax dollars.

Private institutions are not subject to these same regulations directly. However, they do have an obligation to give others the opportunity to enjoy the same success as themselves, through taxation.

[A18]

Solely on merit and based on economic background are two different things.

On merit is my way; getting in on actual grades and accomplishments.

[Nation]

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No, parents should be trusted with that decision. Public school is NOT maximized education. Take it from someone who's living it first hand.

And yes, it's competition. It works the same as any other market...what else could it be? It's not as if you couldn't learn without any computers at all, and fourty year old books, and a beat up building with no lights.

The parents in DC certainly don't think so. Vouchers are a fine idea, but when you have a huge advertising campaign, and offers to a huge amount of the city's residents to utilize vouchers, and very little of those residents actually decide to use the vouchers -- you have a problem.

[Nym90]

Solely on merit and based on economic background are two different things.

On merit is my way; getting in on actual grades and accomplishments.

Yes, but merit is not necessarily reflected in grades. It's easier to get good grades if you come from a wealthy family. You have more resources at your disposal to help you get good grades, it isn't necessarily based on your own intelligence or hard work. You also are less likely to go without the basic necessities of life. Those who go without the basic necessities of life, such as food, shelter, good clothing, security from threat and harm, etc., have a much harder time succeeding in school.

[Nym90]

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No, parents should be trusted with that decision. Public school is NOT maximized education. Take it from someone who's living it first hand.

And yes, it's competition. It works the same as any other market...what else could it be? It's not as if you couldn't learn without any computers at all, and fourty year old books, and a beat up building with no lights.

The parents in DC certainly don't think so. Vouchers are a fine idea, but when you have a huge advertising campaign, and offers to a huge amount of the city's residents to utilize vouchers, and very little of those residents actually decide to use the vouchers -- you have a problem.

Exactly; often the problem is parents not instilling good education in their children as a core value from childhood. In this case, there is nothing the schools or government can do. Government can never make up for bad parenting; people must take responsibility for being good parents and not rely on government to bail them out.

[A18]

No, I mean real merit. As in, best educated.

Which, by the way, is also in the best interest of society.

[Nym90]

No, I mean real merit. As in, best educated.

Which, by the way, is also in the best interest of society.

I feel it's in the best interest of society for all to have equal opportunity to suceed based on their intelligence, creativity, and work ethic. This encourages people to think more and to work harder, rather than to be able to continue to earn lots of money solely on the laurels of theirs and their parents' past accomplishments.

As long as you have enough money and don't feel that you need more, you don't need to continue to work hard, but if you want to earn more than you have, you should have to be creative, intelligent, and hard working in order to do so.

[A18]

And I believe people's creativity is measured by other people. You can be hardworking at throwing rocks.

Grades should decide it.

[Nym90]

And I believe people's creativity is measured by other people. You can be hardworking at throwing rocks.

Grades should decide it.

I agree that creativity is measured by others. All 3 should be factors; obviously you should have to be hardworking at something that makes a positive contribution to society.

[A18]

Well, the kid that got the best grades has done the most to prove to society that he has the creativity and hardworking ethic merit demands.

[Nym90]

Not neccessarily, he may have attained the grades through the availability of better tutors or other resources, or the poor kid may have failed due to the lack of basic necessities of life which are prerequisities to academic success.

[Citizen James]

Not neccessarily, he may have attained the grades through the availability of better tutors or other resources, or the poor kid may have failed due to the lack of basic necessities of life which are prerequisities to academic success.

Kinda hard to focus when you haven't eaten in the past 24 hours.  Happens more often than many might think, even in the poorer sections of suburbia.

[A18]

Either way, he doesn't know the stuff, which is what's important.

[Nym90]

Either way, he doesn't know the stuff, which is what's important.

Well, I don't agree with that. We have fundamentally different values on this...I see equality of opportunity as the most important thing, and you don't. That's fine, but it means we've basically reached the end of any usefulness to continue debating. We aren't going to change each other's values.

Rather than just telling the hungry kid "too bad, you don't have the ability to succeed, well tough", I think that we should give him the opportunity to get ahead.

[A18]

I also believe in giving him opportunity. Through a good education system. But his background means nothing to me.

[Nym90]

I also believe in giving him opportunity. Through a good education system. But his background means nothing to me.

Well, he doesn't have the opportunity due to his background. So he's not going to get it if you don't take that into consideration. If you don't care, that's fine, but you are ignoring reality if you think background doesn't matter.

[A18]

Free education for all Virginians

[MODU]

Free education for all Virginians

Ummm . . . no.  I pay enough taxes as it is.

[badnarikin04]

I agree with Badnarik and his belief that the state no longer has the ability to correctly teach my generation. Since the Department of Education has been established, we have gone to the most intelligent country in the world to around 30th. You can attribute that to the nation's shrinking attention span, but if you look at a lot of the material public schools teach, it seems that the attention span of our schools has recessed as well.

[A18]

Free education for all Virginians

Ummm . . . no.  I pay enough taxes as it is.

Yeah, and you're paying for everyone's education as it is.

[Nym90]

I agree with Badnarik and his belief that the state no longer has the ability to correctly teach my generation. Since the Department of Education has been established, we have gone to the most intelligent country in the world to around 30th. You can attribute that to the nation's shrinking attention span, but if you look at a lot of the material public schools teach, it seems that the attention span of our schools has recessed as well.

How do you measure most intelligent in this sense?

By standardized test scores? If so, you do realize that the United States is at a huge disadvantage compared to many other countries, because everyone must take the math, science, reading etc. tests, whereas in many other countries, you get onto a "track" at a young age and only focus on one area. We offer a broader education to allow people to choose what to go into upon graduation, we don't put them into one track from which they have a difficult time getting out of, based merely on what they are best at at the time.