So Russia and Georgia just went to war

[Aizen]

This is what happens when you steal the name of a U.S. state.

[2952-0-0]

Poor Georgians and Ossetians...knowing they're being cannon fodder in a game between the Russians and the West, and that they're stuck.

No one's talked about it yet, but this is the reason for all this fuss:



It's the only pipeline from the Caspian Sea to the Western market that doesn't go through Russia or Iran, hence its importance.

[Eraserhead]

It's sad to see that that the U.S. media cares much more about John Edwards and his infidelities than it does about the situation in Georgia.

Although we should expect nothing less, I suppose.

[dead0man]

It's sad to see that that the U.S. media cares much more about John Edwards and his infidelities than it does about the situation in Georgia.

Although we should expect nothing less, I suppose.

All the links in this thread have been to American news sources haven't they?  It's not shocking at all that the TV news isn't covering it.  It's been in the paper, I've heard the radio talking about it.  The internet is all a buz.  TV news sucks.

[Bunwahaha [still dunno why, but well, so be it]]

This is what happens when you steal the name of a U.S. state.

Interesting, it could be effectively US which would have asked Saakachvili to attack, because they knew that Russia could erase them and so that punish them for this story of name, hmm, why not, geopolitics is sometimes so machiavellian...!

It's sad to see that that the U.S. media cares much more about John Edwards and his infidelities than it does about the situation in Georgia.

Although we should expect nothing less, I suppose.

Wow, I didn't know it was so much! Though my country has no lessons to give...

TV news sucks.

Yeah but that are them who "make" the news, that are them who are listened by a large majority of peoples, that are them who create the image of the world.

Today the reality no more matters, it is the image of the reality which matters, an image given by mass media, and by TV first. I don't say I'm OK with it, I note it.

Poor Georgians and Ossetians...knowing they're being cannon fodder in a game between the Russians and the West, and that they're stuck.

No one's talked about it yet, but this is the reason for all this fuss:



It's the only pipeline from the Caspian Sea to the Western market that doesn't go through Russia or Iran, hence its importance.

Yeah, I forgot this one.

The questions would be:

Could this conflict make enough big troubles to make Western interests, like this one, in danger?

If yes, how far is West ready to go to defend these interests?

Then, I consider that Saakachvili is a very bad leader who can take bad and hazardous decisions which can have heavy consequences, and at least for the population of his country and for its soldiers.

I expect him to have done it to force a Western support to his actions no matter the Russian response. Because, unless he is insane, he must have expected that by doing this there was a lot of chance for a Russian military response and he must have been aware that alone he had no chances.

[GMantis]

I'm no big fan of Saakashvili. He overthrew an authoritarian President only to head down the same path.

However he is completely correct here in the stand against the Russian imperialist pigs. Georgia has my full support.

As for South Ossetia not supporting the Georgian presence there, duh. Of course that's going to be the case after they ethnically cleansed all the ethnic Georgians living there with the assistance of Russia. Now the imperialist pigs are getting greedy again.

In fact, it's the other way round. South Ossetia has (and had) a large Ossetian majority. The Georgian minority lives mainly in areas which were controlled by Georgia even before the war. During the first conflict there were over a 100,000 Ossetian refugees in Northern Ossetia. You are confusing Ossetia with Abkhazia.
See here and here.
And there is no doubt that the Georgians started the current conflict or that Saakashvilli has been planing this for a very long time.

I think part of the problem on this thread is that we are treating South Ossetia and to a lesser extent Abkhazia as real countries. They are not nor are they normal ethnic enclaves. They are basically mafia regimes that have been kept in power by Russian military force since 1992.  There is no evidence these regimes have any real popular support and I would not be shocked if South Ossetia did in fact nearly collapse in a day without Russian military intervention.

The real problem is that Georgia has decided to call Russia's bluff, only to discover it is not actually a bluff. To withdraw now would be worse than to have never gone in. That at least would have maintained the fiction that Georgia could assert its authority if it wanted to. Backing down now would demonstrate that for practical purposes these territories are independent, and no Georgian leader can do that. Most likely, Saakashvili  is going to stand firm and pray that Bush gives him a face saving way to back down.

However bad the South Ossetian government, they haven't destroyed the capital or killed hundreds of people in a matter of days; you are absolutely deluded if you think the Ossetians are going to welcome the Georgians.

Do they even have a reason? You can't just suddenly invade a country.

How stupid is Putin?

The hypocrisy of some people is really unbelievable.

How many countries has the US invaded in the last 20 years?

[Meeker]

Do they even have a reason? You can't just suddenly invade a country.

How stupid is Putin?

The hypocrisy of some people is really unbelievable.

How many countries has the US invaded in the last 20 years?

How many of those invasions have I supported?

[GMantis]

How many of those invasions have I supported?

Interesting question.
Probably Desert Storm, the intervention in Bosnia and Kosovo and the war in Afghanistan. And probably the auxillary bombardments of various countries.

[Middle-aged Europe]

The South Ossetian war seems to be competing with the Olympic Games in German news coverage. Yesterday's evening news on ARD showed a five-second-teaser of the opening ceremony of the Olympic Games, then five minutes on the situation in Georgia and then five minutes on the Olympic Games. The Saturday morning news on n-tv decided to report on the Olympic Games first and then on the Georgia concflict.



SPIEGEL ONLINE is a bit different though.

First article (the moment I'm writing this): War in Georgia.

Second article: McCain's and Obama's reaction to the situation in Georgia.

Third article: Andrea Ypsilanti is still planning to get elected minister-president of Hesse with the votes of the Left Party.

Fourth article: A German citizen who had protested on the Tiananmen Square was arrested by Chinese authorities.

Fifth article: A report on how the average Chinese is following the Olympic Games.

[Associate Justice PiT]

      It just occurred to me that this might not get much play in the United States because people here might think that it's Georgia the state going to war with Russia (since Americans don't know geography).

[Iosif is a COTHO]

My brother read that Russia could have staged this purposely during the Olympics because most of the world leaders are in Beijing. Anyone think it's possible?

no, Georgia staged this to try and sneak back the region without Russia doing anything. This particular confrontation was entirely planned and executed by them. Didn't go quite as they hoped though.

times article:

You must be logged in to read this quote.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article4488803.ece

[Bunwahaha [still dunno why, but well, so be it]]

      It just occurred to me that this might not get much play in the United States because people here might think that it's Georgia the state going to war with Russia (since Americans don't know geography).

With hope this to only be irony...

The South Ossetian war seems to be competing with the Olympic Games in German news coverage. Yesterday's evening news on ARD showed a five-second-teaser of the opening ceremony of the Olympic Games, then five minutes on the situation in Georgia and then five minutes on the Olympic Games. The Saturday morning news on n-tv decided to report on the Olympic Games first and then on the Georgia concflict.



SPIEGEL ONLINE is a bit different though.

First article (the moment I'm writing this): War in Georgia.

Second article: McCain's and Obama's reaction to the situation in Georgia.

Third article: Andrea Ypsilanti is still planning to get elected minister-president of Hesse with the votes of the Left Party.

Fourth article: A German citizen who had protested on the Tiananmen Square was arrested by Chinese authorities.

Fifth article: A report on how the average Chinese is following the Olympic Games.

In France, on the main TV news, the most watched, those of TF1, which begins at 08h00 pm and finishes at about 08h30, maximum 08h35, what I saw must have lasted no more than one minute and not before 08h20.

[dead0man]

CNN lead off this morning with the story of an American athletes family memeber being murdered in China.  Then went on to the Edwards comedy.  After that it was the war in Georgia.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

This is all so incredibly depressing. But not a surprise; it's been obvious for a while that something bad was going to happen over this. Sigh.

---
Random stuff lifted from teh BBC website:

*Russian planes have bombed Stalin's hometown (Gori) and the usual dispute over what and who was bombed be raging...
*Russia says it has "liberated" Tskhinvali, Georgia says it's still controlled by them.
*More Russian troops are to go to South Ossetia
*Two Russian planes have been shot down over Georgia
*Both sides disagree over death figures.

[Hash]

CNN lead off this morning with the story of an American athletes family memeber being murdered in China.  Then went on to the Edwards comedy.  After that it was the war in Georgia.

CNN is such a joke now.

[Middle-aged Europe]

CNN lead off this morning with the story of an American athletes family memeber being murdered in China.  Then went on to the Edwards comedy.  After that it was the war in Georgia.

The murder in China was actually the first thing mentioned on n-tv in their news break about an hour ago. It seems n-tv generally places a higher priority on the Olympic Games than on Georgia.

It's also the third story on SPIEGEL ONLINE right now... the first two articles are still dealing with Georgia though.

The Internet is placing a greater emphasis on Georgia than the television and the public TV channels are apparently placing a greater emphasis on this story than the private TV channels. I guess this somewhat mirrors the news situation in the United States. But in general, Georgia plays a bit of a greater role here... and we have more public TV stations.

[GMantis]

CNN lead off this morning with the story of an American athletes family memeber being murdered in China.  Then went on to the Edwards comedy.  After that it was the war in Georgia.

CNN is such a joke now.

They didn't report of the Georgian attack on Tsinkhvali for 12 hours, then immediately reacted reported on the Russian reaction.

[dead0man]

But in general, Georgia plays a bit of a greater role here... and we have more public TV stations.

It is a lot closer geographically and historically.  The number of Americans who can ID Georgia on a map are in the single digits I'm sure. 

(it is confusing down there post Soviet break up.  Georgia, Armenia and  Azerbaijan all sandwhiched together and what not.)

[StateBoiler]

Here is a video news report on MSNBC from (I guess their partner) ITV:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/26095477#26095477

Right after that is an interview with Richard Holbrooke, the former U.N. Ambassador. Sounds like the U.S. will be 100% behind Georgia.

[StateBoiler]

Some more videos. :

http://life.ru/video/4932

[Middle-aged Europe]

But in general, Georgia plays a bit of a greater role here... and we have more public TV stations.

It is a lot closer geographically and historically.  The number of Americans who can ID Georgia on a map are in the single digits I'm sure. 

(it is confusing down there post Soviet break up.  Georgia, Armenia and  Azerbaijan all sandwhiched together and what not.)

And I was able to take a look at BILD's (somewhat minimalistic) headline. In capitalized, bold letters which cover half of the front page:

WAR!


You could just as well think that Russia had invaded Germany yesterday. One thing is sure: It's hard to not notice the whole thing.

[Bunwahaha [still dunno why, but well, so be it]]

Here is a video news report on MSNBC from (I guess their partner) ITV:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/26095477#26095477

Right after that is an interview with Richard Holbrooke, the former U.N. Ambassador. Sounds like the U.S. will be 100% behind Georgia.

If West supports Georgia, at best South-Ossetia go back to Russia by diplomatic ways, at worst, I let your imagination work...

[GMantis]

The Russians and the South Ossetians are claiming that 1500 people were killed during the shelling of Tskhinvali, which has yet to be confirmed. But I've noticed that some media are trying to twist this into a version, where the Russians are responsible for the deaths. For example, see here.

[Angel of Death]

This conflict must be pretty distressing for people: It doesn't involve any Muslims to side against knee-jerkily!

Oh wait, there are a few in Abkhazia. Well, that settles it then.

[Bunwahaha [still dunno why, but well, so be it]]

The Russians and the South Ossetians are claiming that 1500 people were killed during the shelling of Tskhinvali, which has yet to be confirmed. But I've noticed that some media are trying to twist this into a version, where the Russians are responsible for the deaths. For example, see here.

The trend was already here in western medias, so now with a war, we have to expect it to become bigger. Bad thing because it actually seems that the responsible of all this is Saakachvili more than others, and to make this guy avoided his responsibilities is encouraging him to continue his bad course. Taking away from Saakachvili the weight he can have on this crisis could really be welcome...