So Russia and Georgia just went to war

[Bunwahaha [still dunno why, but well, so be it]]

Why should Georgia, or any other state, have to conduct its affairs around what pleases Moscow? Or Washington?

Doesn't it work for every weak state?

[Hash]

Luckily, France, in the name of EU, comes in the game and say:

"Please turn back to your positions of before the war"

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http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20080809/wl_afp/georgiasossetiarussiaunrest_080809203148;_ylt=Av1VBQTjbEEFSUJapBQW8Z6s0NUE

...

What did you expect Kouchner to say? Kill all Russians? Kill all Georgians? Kill all South Ossetis?

[GMantis]

and that's EXACTLY the reason why Georgia shouldn't have provided the Russians an excuse.

Putin/Medvedev would find any reason.

Why should Georgia, or any other state, have to conduct its affairs around what pleases Moscow? Or Washington?

Invading a disputed region in which Russia has strong interests is stretching the definition for internal affairs.
And from Georgia behaves under Saakashvilli, I would say their affairs are conducted exactly so that they'll please Washington.

What did you expect Kouchner to say? Kill all Russians? Kill all Georgians? Kill all South Ossetis?

Exactly. That's what almost all neutral countries are saying.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

and that's EXACTLY the reason why Georgia shouldn't have provided the Russians an excuse.

Putin/Medvedev would find any reason.

Why should Georgia, or any other state, have to conduct its affairs around what pleases Moscow? Or Washington?

we'll I guess if Georgians want to kick their jocks knocked in the dirt, they have every right to rock the boath and make waves.

although there were ongoing disputes, they could have chosen to let sleeping dogs lie.  Instead, they provoked an adversary much stronger than themselves.

DUMB!

 

[WMS]

You know, I've been reading this thread, and others, for some time...

And I keep getting reminders - especially from Dessie Potter/GMantis "Whatever the Russians do is good! Whatever the Americans do is evil!" - of why I so dislike the European Left Wing. I was expecting a whole lot of 'well the Georgians are pro-American, and so we'll find some way to blame everything on them so we don't interrupt the energy supplies from Russia' and I'm seeing some of that already. Gee, where are all the people who have been screaming over the U.S. violating Iraq's internal affairs all these years?

Bloody hell, Dessie, is it EVER possible for the Russians to do wrong in your world?

And for the record, my best bet, based on available information, is that the South Ossetians actually instigated this by shelling Georgian villages. Naturally, with the Russians' approval and foreknowledge, since isn't it awfully convenient that the Russians just happened to have all these troops ready to swoop in at a moment's notice, no preparation required?

But don't worry, no matter what the Russians do I expect certain people to justify every action they do.

Poor Georgians, they've been screwed over by the Russians ever since independence and it looks like it's going to continue. I can't really blame them, even if they are doomed - they've been facing the carving up of their county for over a decade now and now we're going to see it get finalized because nobody ever wants to tell the Russians "no".

If you can't tell, of course I back the Georgians - I did so back in 1992 and 1993, as well, and yes, I saw the hand of Russia back then as well.

Hmm, I haven't launched an incendiary blast over foreign policy for ages now, although I certainly have been tempted while reading a lot of threads on this board.

[Dan the Roman]

Azerbaijan is actually giving vocal support to Georgia. Not very surprising but does this mean anything?

Well Russia did the same thing to them in the early 1990s over Nagorno karabakh so it makes sense they would have little tolerance for the Russian "we are supporting separatists in your borders under the guise of peacekeepers" game.

Which is really the problem with those who are standing up for Russia here. If it was one or two territories it would be one thing, but Russia has done this in half a dozen different places in the former Soviet Republics, so much so that its becoming a very unfunny joke. I think the Western media right now is the only entity in the world that is taking seriously the claims of Ossetians. And even if we grant that they may have some basic legitimacy, will someone please defend Abkhazia. It doesn't even bother holding rigged elections, and basically is nothing more than a Mafia enclave on the black sea. The very fact that they are willing to join in this little war is all the evidence required.

I doubt this is really about Georgia at all. It is about showing the United States that this NATO expansion stuff is BS, because it shows other Soviet Republics considering membership that it will do absolutely nothing for them in terms of protecting them from Russia.

[dead0man]

I actually agree with StatesRights here, Putin's Russia is super manipulative and wants a large Russian sphere. I am surprised they didn't take advantage of the ethnic Russian riots in Estonia.

Thanks to them being in NATO.  If they were not, Russia would probably have done to them what they are currently doing to Georgia.  And the same people would have said that Estonia started it.

[Dan the Roman]

On a side note this little adventure has done wonders for Mikhail Saakashvili’s relations with the parliamentary opposition. When last we checked in with them a few months ago they were accusing him of rigging the Presidential elections. Now they are voting him emergency powers.

[Flying Dog]

Of course, oil may keep this war going on longer than it would otherwise.

[dead0man]

I wonder if this will help a few people decide who side they're going to be on in this:

You must be logged in to read this quote.

[Hash]

Some Georgian athletes at the Olympics have said they are considering joining their army to fight.

[Dan the Roman]

Some Georgian athletes at the Olympics have said they are considering joining their army to fight.

The Chinese must be overjoyed with Putin and Saakashvili  right now.

[??????????]

WMS! You're back!

[Cubby]

The interests of the west are more in line with helping the people then harming them. Unlike the Soviets. See what the Soviets did to the Ukraine over energy a few years back.

Yeah, how dare those damn Soviets (somehow existing 13 years after their collapse) impose market prices on the Ukraine!

Market prices had absolutely nothing to do with that incident. That was Russian retaliation against Ukraine because they hate(d) Yushchenko and were still mad they hadn't killed him with that dioxin in 2004. Yushchenko was getting too friendly with the West, in the Kremlin's opinion, just like Georgia has been doing, and in both cases, they've tried to stop it.

[??????????]

The interests of the west are more in line with helping the people then harming them. Unlike the Soviets. See what the Soviets did to the Ukraine over energy a few years back.

Yeah, how dare those damn Soviets (somehow existing 13 years after their collapse) impose market prices on the Ukraine!

Market prices had absolutely nothing to do with that incident. That was Russian retaliation against Ukraine because they hate(d) Yushchenko and were still mad they hadn't killed him with that dioxin in 2004. Yushchenko was getting too friendly with the West, in the Kremlin's opinion, just like Georgia has been doing, and in both cases, they've tried to stop it.

Correct Pym, however, you got our two quotes mixed up. I fixed it.

[Cubby]

Correct Pym, however, you got our two quotes mixed up. I fixed it.

I don't know how I did that. I knew you were pro-Georgian.

If Dazzleman was still here he'd be shocked to see how much I dislike Russia currently. He said all liberals secretly loved the USSR/Russia, no matter what awful things they did.

[??????????]

Correct Pym, however, you got our two quotes mixed up. I fixed it.

I don't know how I did that. I knew you were pro-Georgian.

If Dazzleman was still here he'd be shocked to see how much I dislike Russia currently. He said all liberals secretly loved the USSR/Russia, no matter what awful things they did.

I don't think the European leftists are disproving D-man.

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

We'll turn our backs on them like we (not just the US, the West at large) have done many times before all over the world.  If we have nothing to gain but the liberty of others, we're not very consistent about helping.

You think we SHOULD intervene?

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Correct Pym, however, you got our two quotes mixed up. I fixed it.

I don't know how I did that. I knew you were pro-Georgian.

If Dazzleman was still here he'd be shocked to see how much I dislike Russia currently. He said all liberals secretly loved the USSR/Russia, no matter what awful things they did.

I don't think the European leftists are disproving D-man.

The European Union (which by the way is mostly made up of conservative governments now but we all know you won't listen to that logic) is pretty much taking the exact same position on this as Bush.

[Associate Justice PiT]

Correct Pym, however, you got our two quotes mixed up. I fixed it.

I don't know how I did that. I knew you were pro-Georgian.

If Dazzleman was still here he'd be shocked to see how much I dislike Russia currently. He said all liberals secretly loved the USSR/Russia, no matter what awful things they did.

I don't think the European leftists are disproving D-man.

The European Union (which by the way is mostly made up of conservative governments now but we all know you won't listen to that logic) is pretty much taking the exact same position on this as Bush.

     Good for the EU. It's nice to see somebody standing up to the Russian bullies.

[??????????]

Correct Pym, however, you got our two quotes mixed up. I fixed it.

I don't know how I did that. I knew you were pro-Georgian.

If Dazzleman was still here he'd be shocked to see how much I dislike Russia currently. He said all liberals secretly loved the USSR/Russia, no matter what awful things they did.

I don't think the European leftists are disproving D-man.

The European Union (which by the way is mostly made up of conservative governments now but we all know you won't listen to that logic) is pretty much taking the exact same position on this as Bush.

I'm referring to this forum.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Correct Pym, however, you got our two quotes mixed up. I fixed it.

I don't know how I did that. I knew you were pro-Georgian.

If Dazzleman was still here he'd be shocked to see how much I dislike Russia currently. He said all liberals secretly loved the USSR/Russia, no matter what awful things they did.

I don't think the European leftists are disproving D-man.

The European Union (which by the way is mostly made up of conservative governments now but we all know you won't listen to that logic) is pretty much taking the exact same position on this as Bush.

I'm referring to this forum.

We have a grand total of one European poster here defending Russia.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

The most amusing thing about this is the fact that it's Russia's own ethnic minority enclave, Chechnya, that's getting the worst treatment in the former Soviet Union, yet it's also incidentally the only one Russia doesn't support. There are few things more blatant than Russia's double standard here. I say this as someone who was pretty happy when the Russians took out that monster Shamil Besayav.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

And I think dantheroman is making the best points here. South Ossetia and Abkhazia are pretty much comparable to the following:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Independent_State_of_Croatia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slovak_Republic_%281939%E2%80%931945%29

Whether or not either state was valid or legitimate was a completely different question than if you supported Croatian or Slovakian independence.

[War on Want]

Reuters reported that South Ossetian officials claimed that fighting on Tskhinvali's southern fringes had ended at about mid-night, however these reports could not be substantiated. Reuters further reported that the Russian commander of the 58th Army in South Ossetia, Lieutenant General Anatoly Khrulyov, was wounded by Georgian forces outside of Tskhinvali early Sunday morning.

The Georgian Interior Ministry claimed that Russia had moved 6000 soldiers into Georgia by land and another 4000 in by sea, all preparing to attack at dawn.

Vladimir Putin, after attending the opening ceremony of the Beijing Olympics, flew to North Ossetia to oversee what he called a "humanitarian" operation and announce that now it was unlikely that South Ossetia could ever reintegrate within Georgia. His spokesperson gave assurances that the visit had no military component, and in the morning Putin left for Gorki outside Moscow to meet Russian president Medvedev.

Georgian troops have pulled out of South Ossetia, a Georgian interior ministry spokesman has told the BBC

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