Impact of Russian attack on Georgia on American Presidential election

[NOVA Green]

the opening act on a drama authored by Vlad Putin to reconstitute a Russian empire, with himself as emperor (in fact, if not in name).

he's gonna have a pretty tough time doing that given that NATO seems to be surrounding him to the west

Not really.

First, Russia will absorb Byelorussia.  No problem from NATO.

Then, they'll take back the 'stans.  Again, no real opposition from NATO.

Then, it will turn out that the baltic republics will somehow "provoke" the Russians, which will force the Russians to attack and aborb the baltic republics.

Question is, will a President Obama have the cojones to oppose Russia seeking to recover Alaska?

Russia is not interested in "reoccupying" the former Soviet Republics that split. They are interested in having compliant pro-Russian neighbors that do not question Kremlin hegemony, while at the same time using the theme of protecting the interests of Russian minorities in the former Soviet Republics to bolster support within Russia proper.

[Torie]

Calm down Carl. There is no need to get so overwrought. Russia had trouble subduing Afghanistan remember?

[Stranger in a strange land]

The Stans are a lot more likely to fall to China than they are to Russia.

And let's not forget: Russia has serious long-term problems of its own. Its birthrate is even lower than Western Europe's, many women are infertile from having so many abortions, and its people drink more, smoke more, and commit suicide more often on a per capita basis than almost anyone else on earth. Add to that Russia has very little, if any, soft power: Communism had worldwide appeal because it promised freedom and equality, but nobody outside of Russia (and maybe Belarus and Serbia) is attracted to Russian traditionalism and Slavic supremacy. Not that I'm a huge believer in soft power, but it matters a lot more than many people seem to think.

If Russia tries to retake Ukraine, the Baltics, and Central Asia, it could well die of indigestion.

Russia does, however, have one major resource: oil. Russia is still relevant in international politics because it's Saudi Arabia with Missiles. If we cut down on our oil usage through conservation, alternative energy, nuclear power, hybrid and hydrogen cars, and responsible domestic drilling, we can hurt them. You might hurt a little bit by conserving, that's true, but it will hurt Putin, Chavez, Abdullah, and Ahmadinejad much more.  

[CARLHAYDEN]

Calm down Carl. There is no need to get so overwrought. Russia had trouble subduing Afghanistan remember?

I know a lot more about Afghanistan than I want to remember!

The various 'stans are former soviet territority, where a signficant number of Russian nationals were intentionally settled.

Also, unlike Afghanistan, the Russians put in place basic transportation systems in the stans.

Oh, and tell Xahar to study a little history (his ignorance is massive).

[Hash]

Oh, and tell Xahar to study a little history (his ignorance is massive).

lol

[Хahar 🤔]

Oh, and tell Xahar to study a little history (his ignorance is massive).

lol

I am ignorant about a great deal of things. I am not ignorant about history. Certainly not Russian history. Not after all the time I've spent poring over Volkogonov and Khrushchev's memoirs and the transcripts of the show trials of the Great Purge.

[CARLHAYDEN]

Oh, and tell Xahar to study a little history (his ignorance is massive).

lol

I am ignorant about a great deal of things. I am not ignorant about history. Certainly not Russian history. Not after all the time I've spent poring over Volkogonov and Khrushchev's memoirs and the transcripts of the show trials of the Great Purge.

I agree that you are ignorant about many things.

I must disagree with you when you alledge that you are "not ignorant about history."

Also, I have yet to detect any understanding on your part of the lessons of history.

Also, your previous posts would tend to indicate that you are unaware that Alaska was once a Russian possession.

[Hash]

Also, your previous posts would tend to indicate that you are unaware that Alaska was once a Russian possession.

Until 1867. This is 2008. Wake up and smell the coffee.

Corsica was once Italian. Newfoundland was once a British possession. The Virgin Islands were once Danish.

[CARLHAYDEN]

Also, your previous posts would tend to indicate that you are unaware that Alaska was once a Russian possession.

Until 1867. This is 2008. Wake up and smell the coffee.

Corsica was once Italian. Newfoundland was once a British possession. The Virgin Islands were once Danish.

Lets see.

How long were the Falklands British possessions, before the Argentines invaded and sought to annex them?

Do you understand the status of Kashmir and Jammu, and how long that has been contested?

Oh, and part (not all) of the Virgin Islands were at one time Danish (don't see the danes trying to recover their lost colonies).

Are you really so ignorant that you do not understand the strong pull of Russian imperialism?

Wake up tovarisch, oh, and aside from Vodka, they drink tea in Russia.

[Hash]

Lets see.

How long were the Falklands British possessions, before the Argentines invaded and sought to annex them?

Entirely unrelated. The Argentines had a strong claim, and still have, to the Falklands. Russia doesn't have a strong claim to Alaska.

Do you understand the status of Kashmir and Jammu, and how long that has been contested?

Entirely unrelated again.

Oh, and part (not all) of the Virgin Islands were at one time Danish (don't see the danes trying to recover their lost colonies).

Yes, I know.

Are you really so ignorant that you do not understand the strong pull of Russian imperialism?

Try debating instead of throwing insults around.

Wake up tovarisch, oh, and aside from Vodka, they drink tea in Russia.

lolz

[Kaine for Senate '18]

I am ignorant about a great deal of things. I am not ignorant about history. Certainly not Russian history. Not after all the time I've spent poring over Volkogonov and Khrushchev's memoirs and the transcripts of the show trials of the Great Purge.

You've seriously read those?

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Lets see.

How long were the Falklands British possessions, before the Argentines invaded and sought to annex them?

Entirely unrelated. The Argentines had a strong claim, and still have, to the Falklands. Russia doesn't have a strong claim to Alaska.

LOL. The only claim whatsoever the Argentines have to the Falklands is geographic proximity. That's it. They have jack sh!t otherwise. Hold a referendum in the Falklands and it'd be over 99% for Britain, with the other votes probably being jokes.

[CARLHAYDEN]

Lets see.

How long were the Falklands British possessions, before the Argentines invaded and sought to annex them?

Entirely unrelated. The Argentines had a strong claim, and still have, to the Falklands. Russia doesn't have a strong claim to Alaska.

Do you understand the status of Kashmir and Jammu, and how long that has been contested?

Entirely unrelated again.

Oh, and part (not all) of the Virgin Islands were at one time Danish (don't see the danes trying to recover their lost colonies).

Yes, I know.

Are you really so ignorant that you do not understand the strong pull of Russian imperialism?

Try debating instead of throwing insults around.

Wake up tovarisch, oh, and aside from Vodka, they drink tea in Russia.

lolz

Well, lets see,

You argued that after a certain period of time, nations would give up their pretenstions to areas they had once ruled.

I gave you examples of where that was NOT true.

Apparently you are unable to comprehend my point.

Also, you still have shown NO understanding of the pull of Russian imperialism.  Not simply an insult, but rather an observation of your failure to understand a key concept.

Finally, I note that you keep dodging the central concept, that the Russians will continue expanding by force until stopped (and you have no desire to stop them until it becomes so late that the effort would need to be extreme).

[Хahar 🤔]

I am ignorant about a great deal of things. I am not ignorant about history. Certainly not Russian history. Not after all the time I've spent poring over Volkogonov and Khrushchev's memoirs and the transcripts of the show trials of the Great Purge.

You've seriously read those?

Aye. Great reading.
CARL, I now full well what Russian imperialism means. I know what happened at Katyń. I also know that Putin will practice realpolitik. Like him or not, he's certainly very intelligent. You had to be to get ahead in the dog-eat-dog world of Soviet politics. He's learned from Gorbachev's mistakes, and Brezhnev's mistakes, and Khrushchev's mistakes, and Stalin's mistakes. And he doesn't need hard power. He wants soft power. Ukraine 2004 proved that conclusively. He won't attack the United States. That would be stupid, when he can dominate the world economically instead. And there are no irredentist Russians in Alaska. Russia irredenta does not include Alaska. It has been centuries since the bear looked east. If there was a movement, we would've seen it in the last 150 years.

[CARLHAYDEN]

I am ignorant about a great deal of things. I am not ignorant about history. Certainly not Russian history. Not after all the time I've spent poring over Volkogonov and Khrushchev's memoirs and the transcripts of the show trials of the Great Purge.

You've seriously read those?

Aye. Great reading.
CARL, I now full well what Russian imperialism means. I know what happened at Katyń. I also know that Putin will practice realpolitik. Like him or not, he's certainly very intelligent. You had to be to get ahead in the dog-eat-dog world of Soviet politics. He's learned from Gorbachev's mistakes, and Brezhnev's mistakes, and Khrushchev's mistakes, and Stalin's mistakes. And he doesn't need hard power. He wants soft power. Ukraine 2004 proved that conclusively. He won't attack the United States. That would be stupid, when he can dominate the world economically instead. And there are no irredentist Russians in Alaska. Russia irredenta does not include Alaska. It has been centuries since the bear looked east. If there was a movement, we would've seen it in the last 150 years.

First, the Russians seized the islands of northern Japan after World War II.

Second, the Russo-Japanese war was the result of Russian building railroads and other facilities in Manchuria.

Third, in 1969 the Russians were planning on hitting China's nuclear facilities in Sinkiang.

All of these events have happened in the last hundred years, and there are more.

Now, no one I know of doubts that Putin is intelligent, or thoroughly ruthless. 

He will use whatever force he deems necessary to obtain his objectives.

Do you have any idea of his background?

Finally, you seem to believe there need to be irredentists to cause an attacks.  That is simply false.  All that is needed is for a thug like Putin to believe that he can seize assets he wants with little risk.

[Hash]

Also, you still have shown NO understanding of the pull of Russian imperialism.  Not simply an insult, but rather an observation of your failure to understand a key concept.

Russian imperialism is concentrated on Europe these days, in case you haven't noticed. It isn't focused much on Alaska.

[Хahar 🤔]

First, the Russians seized the islands of northern Japan after World War II.

Second, the Russo-Japanese war was the result of Russian building railroads and other facilities in Manchuria.

Third, in 1969 the Russians were planning on hitting China's nuclear facilities in Sinkiang.

All of these events have happened in the last hundred years, and there are more.

Now, no one I know of doubts that Putin is intelligent, or thoroughly ruthless. 

He will use whatever force he deems necessary to obtain his objectives.

Do you have any idea of his background?

Finally, you seem to believe there need to be irredentists to cause an attacks.  That is simply false.  All that is needed is for a thug like Putin to believe that he can seize assets he wants with little risk.

But all these examples of Russian imperialism have been aginst weaker countries. I agree with most of what you say, but then to say that he would attack Alaska is an amazing leap of faith.

[CARLHAYDEN]

Also, you still have shown NO understanding of the pull of Russian imperialism.  Not simply an insult, but rather an observation of your failure to understand a key concept.

Russian imperialism is concentrated on Europe these days, in case you haven't noticed. It isn't focused much on Alaska.

Ah, the shifting storyline,

first it was 150 years (and I provided examples disproving that allegation)

now its "these days"

when the Russians intervene in one of the 'stans, what will your story be then (you really need to think ahead when providing defending aggressors as changing your story, as you have on this thread, makes rational people doubt your allegations).

[Хahar 🤔]

Also, you still have shown NO understanding of the pull of Russian imperialism.  Not simply an insult, but rather an observation of your failure to understand a key concept.

Russian imperialism is concentrated on Europe these days, in case you haven't noticed. It isn't focused much on Alaska.

Ah, the shifting storyline,

first it was 150 years (and I provided examples disproving that allegation)

now its "these days"

when the Russians intervene in one of the 'stans, what will your story be then (you really need to think ahead when providing defending aggressors as changing your story, as you have on this thread, makes rational people doubt your allegations).

Oh, I wouldn't be surprised if they did. Not in the decade, most likely, but Russia could intervene there.

[CARLHAYDEN]

Also, you still have shown NO understanding of the pull of Russian imperialism.  Not simply an insult, but rather an observation of your failure to understand a key concept.

Russian imperialism is concentrated on Europe these days, in case you haven't noticed. It isn't focused much on Alaska.

Ah, the shifting storyline,

first it was 150 years (and I provided examples disproving that allegation)

now its "these days"

when the Russians intervene in one of the 'stans, what will your story be then (you really need to think ahead when providing defending aggressors as changing your story, as you have on this thread, makes rational people doubt your allegations).

Oh, I wouldn't be surprised if they did. Not in the decade, most likely, but Russia could intervene there.

You really should write for a soap opera.  You story just keeps changing.

I hope you realize the 'stans are in Asia (you now admited that you "wouldn't be suprised" if the Russians intervene there).

Oh, and now the time span is in the "next decade."

Ah, but you do leave a way out with you "most likely."

[Person Man]

Carl Hayden, though reasonable with domestic social issues, is basically nuke thirst on international issues....and someone is even happy that it is Dubya instead of MickyC in the WH. That's not a good sign. Gee, I though that when I would become a lawyer, I would be able to afford a small plane or boat, now I will be using my disposable income on a fallout shelter.

[Iosif is a COTHO]

Persoanlly, I can't wait for McCain to restart the Cold War. It's everything the world needs right now.

[opebo]

What makes Carl Heyden so over-the-top paranoaic about Russia? 

Christ man, they're just RE-asserting a moderate measure of control over an area they used to control completely just 20 years ago.  And, as many have pointed out against a very weak opponent.  To extrapolate from that that the United States or even its possession of Alaska is in any way under threat is really quite ridiculous.

Of course the real meaning of this is:

1) The American imperialist project in the Caucausus and Central Asia is under threat, and less likely to succeed.  There is some real competition brewing from both Russia and China.

2) Ukraine, the Baltics, and to a much lesser extent Poland are under threat.  The obvious answer is, leave the Baltics and Ukraine alone, as they are clearly in Russia's sphere of influence, and simply build up Poland.  Heck we survived the cold war without losing Alaska.

Really Carl Hayden, I dislike the Russians as well (scumbag Russkies crawling all over Pattaya in the wintertime), but what did you expect them to do, crawl in a hole and die?  They're fighting for their small-time imperial lives over there.

[CARLHAYDEN]

Carl Hayden, though reasonable with domestic social issues, is basically nuke thirst on international issues....and someone is even happy that it is Dubya instead of MickyC in the WH. That's not a good sign. Gee, I though that when I would become a lawyer, I would be able to afford a small plane or boat, now I will be using my disposable income on a fallout shelter.

As usual weasel you either fail to understand my explicitly made point, or are simply misrepresenting.

As I have noted, the United States should supply Georgia with antitank missiles and light SAMs. 

The Russians will back off when they start losing tanks and aircraft.

Do you really believe that any tangible opposition to Russian aggression means nuclear war?

If you have bothered to pay attention, you would note I have been highly critical of GW, whose performance on the invasion of Georgia has been pathetic.

MickyC?!?

[opebo]

Regarding the missile supply issue, Carl Hayden, I wonder if it could be done discretely -  wasn't it done secretly in Afghanistan or through third parties?

I'd support this idea if it could be done without raising too many other problems.