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Author Topic: Is Europe Democratic by nature?  (Read 5248 times)
Harry Hayfield
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« on: September 22, 2008, 02:40:21 pm »
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These are the numbers from the European endorsement maps from 2004 and 2008

2004: Kerry 68% Bush 15% Green 2%
2008: Obama 76% (+8%) McCain 20% (+5%) Green 4% (+2%)

Does this mean that Europe and the US can never see eye to eye when a GOP president is elected?
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Franzl
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« Reply #1 on: September 22, 2008, 02:42:49 pm »
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No, I disagree. When a Republican is actually in office, compromises can be made. Europe just happens to be incredibly partisan. And at least in Germany, the GOP is simply considered evil Smiley
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daboese
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« Reply #2 on: September 22, 2008, 02:49:57 pm »
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After he started the Iraq war, Bush got incredibly unpopular.
Especially Germany, by its nature and history- tries not to be connected to wars in any possible way.
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Franzl
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« Reply #3 on: September 22, 2008, 02:50:54 pm »
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After he started the Iraq war, Bush got incredibly unpopular.
Especially Germany, by its nature and history- tries not to be connected to wars in any possible way.

he was pretty unpopular here even before the war. I understand that the war made a big difference, but there's a natural bias against the REpublicans.
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humder
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« Reply #4 on: September 22, 2008, 02:54:02 pm »
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 The major difference between Europe and America is that America has very little history of socialism. Therefore, Europe is much more left wing. If Barack Obama was European, he would be seen as quite conservative and right wing but because he is against somebody even more right wing, most Europeans see Obama has most similar to themselves.
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« Reply #5 on: September 22, 2008, 02:55:47 pm »
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I wonder if Reagan would've ever "won" Europe (Well Western Europe). Maybe Bush Sr. in 1988 too.
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« Reply #6 on: September 22, 2008, 02:56:10 pm »
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... the GOP is simply considered evil medieval.
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« Reply #7 on: September 22, 2008, 02:57:50 pm »
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i <3 europe
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afleitch
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« Reply #8 on: September 22, 2008, 02:59:12 pm »
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When Tory voters when polled in '04 backed Kerry the answer may simply be that they see alot of themselves in the Democrat 'church' whether liberal or conservative.
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daboese
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« Reply #9 on: September 22, 2008, 03:20:11 pm »
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After he started the Iraq war, Bush got incredibly unpopular.
he was pretty unpopular here even before the war. I understand that the war made a big difference, but there's a natural bias against the Republicans.
The GOP candidates were always a bit more hawk-like (like on of the Republicans said here: "It is better to be feared than loved"), and Germans generally dislike that.
What I see is a problem that because of Bush, the America-picture here has changed- it is seen more and more as a big bully trying to meddle in every foreign country by threatening to bomb them.
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Sbane
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« Reply #10 on: September 22, 2008, 03:46:22 pm »
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Well according to world standards Obama would be center-right while Mccain would be far-right, so it makes sense that most of the world(including europe) would be supportive of Obama. America is just more conservative than most countries in the world.
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daboese
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« Reply #11 on: September 22, 2008, 04:16:30 pm »
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Funny enough that some people here are calling Obama a "socialist".
They probably don't even know what that is.
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« Reply #12 on: September 22, 2008, 04:19:24 pm »
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Funny enough that some people here are calling Obama a "socialist".
They probably don't even know what that is.

It always cracks me up when people call Obama or some democratic hack group "socialist/communist". These people are either idiots or damn ignorant.
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« Reply #13 on: September 22, 2008, 04:19:54 pm »
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Bush, Sr. was quite popular in Europe during his Presidency. I don't know what they would have thought of Clinton (or Perot), but I doubt the % result of 1992 would have been much skewed, if at all, had the election taken place in Europe.
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Franzl
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« Reply #14 on: September 22, 2008, 04:20:42 pm »
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Funny enough that some people here are calling Obama a "socialist".
They probably don't even know what that is.

It always cracks me up when people call Obama or some democratic hack group "socialist/communist". These people are either idiots or damn ignorant.

the word "socialist" is abused as much as the word "fascist".
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PASOK Leader Hashemite
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« Reply #15 on: September 22, 2008, 04:30:57 pm »
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The Republican Party is too extreme nowadays for Europe. The conservative parties in Western Europe are much less extreme than the GOP is.

If France voted, Obama would break 90% easily. McCain would get the votes of the FN, probably the MPF, maybe a crowd of souverainistes, and the FRS faction of the UMP.
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Iosif
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« Reply #16 on: September 22, 2008, 04:43:18 pm »
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In turns of progress of civilisation the US is always about 50 years behind Europe.

It's what happens when you're comprised of Europe's cast offs.
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« Reply #17 on: September 22, 2008, 04:55:29 pm »
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In turns of progress of civilisation the US is always about 50 years behind Europe.

It's what happens when you're comprised of Europe's cast offs.

oh, you mean like....say.....when America was a constitutional republic while most Europeans were still being ruled by a monarch....or say the time leading up to World War 2, for example?
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Iosif
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« Reply #18 on: September 22, 2008, 05:17:01 pm »
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In turns of progress of civilisation the US is always about 50 years behind Europe.

It's what happens when you're comprised of Europe's cast offs.

oh, you mean like....say.....when America was a constitutional republic while most Europeans were still being ruled by a monarch....or say the time leading up to World War 2, for example?

Democracy and civilisation don't always go hand and hand. By your logic the Romans were more civilised than 19th Century Europe.

All civilisations progress to the left, and Europe's political spectrum is quite considerably to the left than the US. America will get there eventually, it's just a little retarded.
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« Reply #19 on: September 22, 2008, 06:12:23 pm »
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I think if New Zealanders were voting for the American President Obama would poll at least 75-80% of the vote.
He would be considered too right-wing for most Kiwis but the GOP (especially it's religious element) is seen as being far too extreme to even consider.

We prefer our politicians to be non-religious or at least never mention their religiosity.I suspect most of Europe is similar.
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Snowguy716
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« Reply #20 on: September 22, 2008, 07:38:24 pm »
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While in some respects Europe is more liberal than the U.S., the U.S. is more liberal in many aspects.  The U.S. is quite liberal when it comes to abortion laws and its separation of church and state.

As far as business is concerned, we are much more liberal in the classical sense.  Stores can be open late here and yes, you might have to work or go to school on St. Obscure day.

We can buy tums and tylenol in gas stations or at any store, while in Germany you have to go specifically to a pharmacy and ask the pharmacist to get them for you.

And despite our racial problems, much of America is much more open minded when it comes to issues of race and religion.

Sure, it's not really an easy process, but pretty much anybody can become an American citizen simply because they want to be.  Try becoming a German citizen.  Try becoming a Japanese citizen.

What makes you an American and what makes you a German are two very very different things at the most fundamental level.  Blood never has and never will make you an American.  Something else bonds us together, for better or for worse.
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Cuivienen
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« Reply #21 on: September 22, 2008, 08:25:36 pm »
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As far as business is concerned, we are much more liberal in the classical sense.  Stores can be open late here and yes, you might have to work or go to school on St. Obscure day.

Welcome to Paramus, New Jersey, where "worldly employment" is illegal on Sundays. (Generally speaking, you are of course correct.)
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Fmr. President & Senator Polnut
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« Reply #22 on: September 22, 2008, 11:22:42 pm »
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Frankly I think the BIG issue is the role of religion.

Religion may have a formalised role in Europe, but it's actual IMPACT and influence is rather superficial.

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« Reply #23 on: September 22, 2008, 11:28:51 pm »
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Actually, its rather more basic than has been discussed.

Many europeans see Americans a big, dumb, unsophisticated louts who refuse to take orders from europeans.

They resent us because we are more sucessful.

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« Reply #24 on: September 22, 2008, 11:34:33 pm »
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The Republican Party is too extreme nowadays for Europe. The conservative parties in Western Europe are much less extreme than the GOP is.
Many of the Conservative parties are to the left of both parties. If Sarkozy ran here for example he'd be labeled a Liberal Democrat.
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