"failed VP nominees don't go on to win the prez. nom" and other stupid arguments
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  "failed VP nominees don't go on to win the prez. nom" and other stupid arguments
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Author Topic: "failed VP nominees don't go on to win the prez. nom" and other stupid arguments  (Read 2707 times)
Mr. Morden
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« on: October 27, 2008, 03:41:19 AM »

OK, consider this the second in a series of threads by me explaining how people here tend to erroneously extrapolate the results of the handful of presidential elections we've had over the last few decades into some ironclad law of politics.  The first one was this thread:

https://uselectionatlas.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=71757.0

in which I argued that the "parties can't win more than two terms in a row except under extraordinary circumstances" rule that people seem to invoke isn't really based on anything.

The fallacy that I'm going to tackle today is the "it's hard for a failed VP nominee to later win the presidential nomination" argument.  This keeps coming up in the 2012 forum, so I figured I'd tackle it here.  The argument goes like this:

"We haven't had any recent cases in which VP nominees went on to win the presidential nomination of their party in a subsequent election.  Or we have, but they were all special cases, like Dole getting the presidential nomination 20 years after running on the ticket with Ford.  Or Mondale in 1984, which shows that you can do it if you were actually elected vice president, but not if you were just the VP nominee and lost."

Folks, there's a serious problem with these kinds of arguments.  In the last, say, 40 years, we've only had 10 presidential elections, and that's not enough to draw such ironclad conclusions from.  You also have to distinguish between "not having a special advantage" and "having a distinct disadvantage".  If failed VP nominees have tended not to win their party's presidential nomination much recently, then OK, you can conclude that they don't have any particular *advantage* in getting the nomination.  But that's different from arguing that being a failed VP nominee puts you at a *disadvantage* in terms of getting the presidential nomination.

What I mean is this: Suppose you have a hypothetical GOP primary between Mitt Romney and Sarah Palin.  Is Palin automatically at a disadvantage because governors and former governors tend to win presidential nominations, while "failed VP nominees don't"?  I don't think so.  Look at it this way: In the last 40 years, we've had 5 governors win their party's nomination for president.  How many state governors have we had over that same time period?  200?  300?  That's an awfully small percentage of governors that ever make it as a major party presidential nominee.  If even one of the last 10 failed VP nominees later won the presidential nomination, then unsuccessful VP candidates would have a better batting average at getting to the top than governors do.

And of course, you can stack the deck to invent any rule you like.  Mondale's nomination in 1984 is inconvenient for you?  Make up a new rule!  You only count VP nominees who were never elected to the office.  Folks, trying to derive "rules" like this is stupid.  Please don't try to invent stupid historical laws like this, as they don't make any sense.

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Dr. Cynic
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« Reply #1 on: October 27, 2008, 01:04:33 PM »

The only successful failed VP nominee in modern history has been Franklin Roosevelt in 1920. The odds suggest that if Palin somehow won the nomination in 2012, she would lose.
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Mr. Morden
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« Reply #2 on: October 27, 2008, 05:10:43 PM »

The only successful failed VP nominee in modern history has been Franklin Roosevelt in 1920. The odds suggest that if Palin somehow won the nomination in 2012, she would lose.

*Bashes head against the wall.*

OK, let me try it this way.  In all of American history, there have been, what?  50 or 60 failed VP nominees from major parties?  If just one of them has actually made it to the presidency, that's a success rate of about 2%.

But what about governors and senators?  How many of them have there been in American history?  Thousands upon thousands?  And how many of *them* have gone on to become president?  35 or so?  (no idea, I'm just guessing)  So is their success rate any better than 2%?  So is there really any reason to believe that failed VP nominees have an intrinsic disadvantage?

You can also see how stupid these kinds of arguments are by the fact that you can change the odds just by changing the categories.  If you redefine Palin's category as "failed VP nominees who are also governors", then the odds change.  Or how about "failed VP nominees who are also governors and are also women"?  If that's the category you use, then there haven't been any until now, so we have no a priori way of guessing what Palin's chances of success are.

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J. J.
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« Reply #3 on: October 31, 2008, 08:55:40 PM »

Unless there a catastrophe, a sitting Senator will be elected President.  That has only happened twice.
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Eleden
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« Reply #4 on: November 05, 2008, 09:45:53 PM »

The only successful failed VP nominee in modern history has been Franklin Roosevelt in 1920. The odds suggest that if Palin somehow won the nomination in 2012, she would lose.

Yes but not because of some set of "odds."  It's because she'd make a terrible candidate for President. 
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MR maverick
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« Reply #5 on: November 12, 2008, 06:17:25 PM »

Iam starting to get the feeling the MSM wants her to run.

John Edwards didn't get very far.

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Nixon in '80
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« Reply #6 on: November 12, 2008, 06:29:11 PM »

Sarah Palin will probably never be President, but she is much more likely to be President now that she has been a failed VP nominee rather than simply being the Governor of Alaska. That's not statistics, that's fact.
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Frozen Sky Ever Why
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« Reply #7 on: November 21, 2008, 11:28:32 AM »

If Sarah Palin runs and gets 45% of the vote this country should be burned to the ground and covered with salt.
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