I think I might vote for Obama

[dead0man]

Just to see if I can get Nebraska to split our electoral votes.  I don't hate Obama, and in fact, kind of like the guy and have for a while. cite  I've never been sure about Bob Barr, he has a look of "icky" about him and while I believe people can come to their senses and change their political views, I'm not sold that he truly has.  I can't and won't vote for another Republican until they become conservatives again.

On the other hand, I've never voted for a winner in a Presidential election (0-4) and I'm oddly proud of that.  I'm still leaning slightly towards Barr, but I've been inching towards Obama, very slowly, over the last few months.  Advice?

[??????????]

Why would a so called libertarian vote for an extreme economic leftist?

[dead0man]

Extreme compared to who?  Bush?  McCain?  Hardly.

[??????????]

Extreme compared to who?  Bush?  McCain?  Hardly.

Obviously you haven't a clue about the type of welfare state Obama wants to create. I don't really much care, this country is going to get what it deserves. C'est la vie.

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

True, Obama is not particularly economically left. A family making $125k a year would see a larger tax cut under Obama than McCain.

[Associate Justice PiT]

     I would not consider voting for Obama under the current conditions. There's a decent chance that my school won't support him either.

[Lunar]

dead0man, I'm a bit libertarian myself.  What's your biggest policy issues with Obama?

[dead0man]

Extreme compared to who?  Bush?  McCain?  Hardly.

Obviously you haven't a clue about the type of welfare state Obama wants to create.

It's possible.  Its also possible he won't be as bad as you fear.  I heard the same thing about Clinton in '92, how'd that turn out?

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This is true.  We'll get the govt we deserve just like everybody else that's ever lived.

[Lunar]

True, Obama is not particularly economically left. A family making $125k a year would see a larger tax cut under Obama than McCain.

giving money to the poor makes him more economically left, shush

[??????????]

I'm a bit libertarian myself.  

Yeah, sure. Sorry dude, just admit you're liberal and be done with it. No one around here will particularly care much, not even me.

giving money to the poor makes him more economically left, shush

Why should people who pay no income taxes get a welfare check ("tax credit") ?

[Lunar]

I'm a bit libertarian myself.  

Yeah, sure. Sorry dude, just admit you're liberal and be done with it. No one around here will particularly care much, not even me.

Admit what?  I disagree with Obama on a number of his economic positions.    I don't see why I have to be anything besides what I am just because you choose to be an ass.  I can list all of the economic positions I support (free trade, anti-Union, replacement of income tax with sales tax, privatizing social security, etc), but if you're just going to play an annoying gotcha game, go to hell.

[Lunar]

giving money to the poor makes him more economically left, shush

Why should people who pay no income taxes get a welfare check ("tax credit") ?

I agree.  Which is why I told him to shush, promising more welfare isn't the way to convince him!

Technically Bush also gave people a check who pay no income taxes too though.

[??????????]

(free trade, anti-Union, replacement of income tax with sales tax, privatizing social security, etc),

Why are you supporting Obama then? Seriously, I'm not playing a "gotcha" game. I'm asking you a question. Obama doesn't support any of your economic positions then, in fact he's intent on getting the govt as far away from those things as possible. Don't get so pissy.

[??????????]

Technically Bush also gave people a check who pay no income taxes too though.

Yep and Bush is an economic liberal and I've stated my opposition on that matter.

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

Technically Bush also gave people a check who pay no income taxes too though.

Yep and Bush is an economic liberal and I've stated my opposition on that matter.

Just because he is reckless fiscally and likes corporate welfare doesn't mean that he isn't economically right-wing.

[Lunar]

(free trade, anti-Union, replacement of income tax with sales tax, privatizing social security, etc),

Why are you supporting Obama then? Seriously, I'm not playing a "gotcha" game. I'm asking you a question. Obama doesn't support any of your economic positions then, in fact he's intent on getting the govt as far away from those things as possible. Don't get so pissy.

I don't have to support every position my candidate does.  I could explain my vote in length, which I might, but I have no desire to do it for you because you've taken a confrontational instead of intelligent approach.

My question is for Deadman.  What concerns you?

[??????????]

I could explain my vote in length, which I might, but I have no desire to do it for you because you've taken a confrontational instead of intelligent approach.

Christ.

[dead0man]

dead0man, I'm a bit libertarian myself.  What's your biggest policy issues with Obama?

Just going in order from wiki:
A.He'll sign the Employee Free Choice Act.
2.He wants to raise the minimum wage, I don't think there should be one in the first place.
III.He's against school vouchers
d.He wants to give teachers merit pay(good), but he wants the Federal Govt to pay for it(horrible).
5.He voted for the bailout and would give out more money
F.He's for AA
VII.He's against Free Trade
8.He wants to loan money to the broken auto industry.
i.He wants to cut spending on the missile defense system
X.He's WAY off on gun rights.

His foreign policy and some of his other positions are a welcome relief, but his hatred of guns and Free Trade are huge sticking points with me.

[??????????]

What's your biggest policy issues with McCain?

[Lunar]

Sorry for my own aggressiveness States, I just get annoyed a that sort of thing.

I guess my answers for why I vote for Obama, despite his economic policy has many reasons, if you're curious:
1)  John McCain's isn't substantively different (And Palin is even more populist)
2) I prioritize social issues more (although I do prefer McCain's "C-" from the NRA to Obama's "F")
3) I prioritize a multitude of foreign policy issues that Obama just seems more intellectual curious about and more reasonable.  I've been recently rethinking my foreign policy views, I might actually graduate myself from being a neoliberal to being a University of Chicago, Wendt-style Constructivist.... anyway, I think McCain's approach tens to rely too much on assumptions of a bipolar world.  I've done a bit of research on McCain's foreign policy and he seems entirely Russo-centric (like, giving speeches back in 2007 about kicking Russia out of the G8, and forming our own version of the Security Council without Russia)
4) Similarly, in order to reverse America's image decline in the world, it doesn't hurt to take a shift in America's leadership image.  President Obama is a pretty radical change from Bush-Clinton-Bush.  It's actually an aggregate of many things, but that's the clearest example, you can come up with a million image-related things in here.  Yes, I think there's an inherent slight value in voting in him simply because he's black.
5) Barack Obama's economic liberalism is sort of a facade, in a way, forced upon him by fighting the longest Democratic primary in history.  Remember during the primary when he bashed NAFTA and all of his advisers got caught saying he didn't mean it?
6) The way to judge a presidential candidate is not by his rhetoric, but by his advisers.  I challenge you to prove to me he has radical economic advisers.  I've met one in the past and she even openly made fun of his criticism of bashing-free trade.
7) Barr is a joke.  I can elaborate on this if you want.  But let's have the Onion summarize it:
(1995–2007) Trying to control the faith, sexuality, reproduction, drug use, and national allegiance of every single American.
(2007–) Aw, F*$k it.
I think divided government is overrated, I'll go into this in a bit.

[Associate Justice PiT]

     Seriously, how would you feel after voting for a lousy Protectionist?

[dead0man]

What's your biggest policy issues with McCain?

I won't vote for a Republican until they ditch the Fundies.  Period.

See, I grew up a Republican and would love to be one again, but way too many of them, the "base" if you will, are racists or populists or Empire builders or want the FCC to get their hands on cable television or want to "nuke Iran" or want put land mines on our southern border or on and on and on.  I'll vote for a Republican again when they bring a me a Goldwaterish man/woman to vote for.

Plus Palin is nuts and McCain is older than dirt.

[dead0man]

5) Barack Obama's economic liberalism is sort of a facade, in a way, forced upon him by fighting the longest Democratic primary in history.  Remember during the primary when he bashed NAFTA and all of his advisers got caught saying he didn't mean it?
6) The way to judge a presidential candidate is not by his rhetoric, but by his advisers.  I challenge you to prove to me he has radical economic advisers.  I've met one in the past and she even openly made fun of his criticism of bashing-free trade.

One of Obama's best points is that he seems like he won't say sh**t just to please the people he is standing in front of.  I think a LOT less of him for this.  I think I'd actually rather him believe NAFTA sucks than to just say it but not mean it.  Integrity is very important to me.

So far this thread has actually pushed me back towards Barr more than it's pushed me towards Obama.

[Associate Justice PiT]

What's your biggest policy issues with McCain?

I won't vote for a Republican until they ditch the Fundies.  Period.

     That's probably a little extreme. I still support some Republicans a) to stop the Democrats from gaining absolute power & b) to help what few reasonable people remain in the party.

     With that much said, I prefer McCain to Obama, but I can't support him anymore, after much reflection over the threat of Palin.

[Lunar]

Wow, I was more planned on doing things on a broad basis than random policies that no president can Constitutionally implement

dead0man, I'm a bit libertarian myself.  What's your biggest policy issues with Obama?

Just going in order from wiki:
A.He'll sign the Employee Free Choice Act.

Will McCain not?

2.He wants to raise the minimum wage, I don't think there should be one in the first place.

hmm... I'm not inherently against the minimum wage myself.  I think it's a bit economically unproductive (it makes it harder to hire high schoolers for crappy jobs), but I think it's a bit cyclical.  It's what all politicians give to the masses.  You give them a wage increase and their cost of living (rent+food+etc.) goes up by the same amount, but they like you for it.  I'm not sure if it hurts our economy much, it's more indicative of a slight problem with democracy.

III.He's against school vouchers

He's come on the record and says he supports them.  Not like that'll ever get past the Democrat-controlled Congress regardless.

d.He wants to give teachers merit pay(good), but he wants the Federal Govt to pay for it(horrible).

Hmm... I just don't see that happening regardless.  You can't freak out over every fake campaign promise, yaddamean?  All of those were made before the economic crisis and both McCain and Obama are refusing to make any changes on their fake spending promises.  I mean, I guess it boils down to the fact that a president really doesn't have that much legislative power.

\
5.He voted for the bailout and would give out more money

This is a place where I depart from my libertarian colleagues to be hones   Spending is a great way to stem a recession and many economists agree.  Spend spend spend spend.

F.He's for AA

*cough*  yeah...

VII.He's against Free Trade

*cough*

8.He wants to loan money to the broken auto industry.

Another failure of our democracy.  Electorally influential but economically unproductive areas get a stronger voice than our more competitive industries..

i.He wants to cut spending on the missile defense system

I have to think more on this.  I support cutting military spending, and I support not provoking other countries, bu I kinda like missile defense.  But a neoliberal, which I'm graduating from, would argue that a missile defense system is inherently bad since it ruins MAD.

X.He's WAY off on gun rights.

Well, I would say a few things on this:

1) He has limited power over our gun rights as president, especially during these times
2) He is a Constitutional expert
3) He comes from Southside Chicago, you HAVE to cut someone slack who sees the horrors of gun violence first-hand. 
4) Of course, McCain has a C- on gun rights, but I understand the choice is between Barr and Obama.
5) He is ambitious and a politician, I'm not going to pretend he's anything but.  Suppose he was *not* against gun rights, could he have gotten where he wanted to in Chicago politics?  I don't defend the process, but anyone who has a real chance for the presidency is forced to say espouse some rhetoric they don't believe.
6) As a hypothetical: do you really think the next president has a higher chance at determining the future of gun rights or the future of abortion?

His foreign policy and some of his other positions are a welcome relief, but his hatred of guns and Free Trade are huge sticking points with me.

Honestly, I think he supports free trade, at least all of his economic advisers seem to.  He only started being against it during the Ohio primary and never mentioned it again.