I think I might vote for Obama

[??????????]

5) Barack Obama's economic liberalism is sort of a facade, in a way, forced upon him by fighting the longest Democratic primary in history.  Remember during the primary when he bashed NAFTA and all of his advisers got caught saying he didn't mean it?
6) The way to judge a presidential candidate is not by his rhetoric, but by his advisers.  I challenge you to prove to me he has radical economic advisers.  I've met one in the past and she even openly made fun of his criticism of bashing-free trade.

One of Obama's best points is that he seems like he won't say sh**t just to please the people he is standing in front of.  I think a LOT less of him for this.  I think I'd actually rather him believe NAFTA sucks than to just say it but not mean it.  Integrity is very important to me.

So far this thread has actually pushed me back towards Barr more than it's pushed me towards Obama.

A few statements..

Do you think union ballots should be open? Will lead to intimidation.
Should 401(k)s be nationalized?
Should bureaucracy run health care?
Should energy produces be punished?
Should Americans be punished with higher electricity bills to force us to conserve?

Just some of the things Obama has said/supported.

[Alcon]

Honestly, I think the best push-back argument against Barr is...Barr.  If you see Barr as a "none of the above" option, I see where your lean is coming from.  If you see this as a Barr vs. Obama decisions on the merits of the candidates themselves, I can't say that I think so much of Barr's integrity either.  Third-party guys should not get a pass on that because they're not mainstream.

Barr has greater integrity than Obama, but considering the latitude afforded by being a low-profile GOPer and then subsequently a minor-party epiphany convert, I'm not impressed.

[Lunar]

5) Barack Obama's economic liberalism is sort of a facade, in a way, forced upon him by fighting the longest Democratic primary in history.  Remember during the primary when he bashed NAFTA and all of his advisers got caught saying he didn't mean it?
6) The way to judge a presidential candidate is not by his rhetoric, but by his advisers.  I challenge you to prove to me he has radical economic advisers.  I've met one in the past and she even openly made fun of his criticism of bashing-free trade.

One of Obama's best points is that he seems like he won't say sh**t just to please the people he is standing in front of.  I think a LOT less of him for this.  I think I'd actually rather him believe NAFTA sucks than to just say it but not mean it.  Integrity is very important to me.

Barr has more political integrity than Obama.

Not a lot more, but he has more.  If that's a key variable for you, then you probably should stay away from the main party candidates because compromise is an inherent part of democracy.


If you're like me and think that the two candidates don't differ substantively on economic policy, and that Barr is a joke, and the key differences are in judicial appointments (based on a Roe litmus test, natch) and foreign policy, then maybe you'd do something else?


Probably Barr's ("oh f*#&k everything I believed in <2007") philosophy is for you

[??????????]

Honestly, I think the best push-back argument against Barr is...Barr.

I hear the Libertarians hate him a whole lot.

[Associate Justice PiT]

5) Barack Obama's economic liberalism is sort of a facade, in a way, forced upon him by fighting the longest Democratic primary in history.  Remember during the primary when he bashed NAFTA and all of his advisers got caught saying he didn't mean it?
6) The way to judge a presidential candidate is not by his rhetoric, but by his advisers.  I challenge you to prove to me he has radical economic advisers.  I've met one in the past and she even openly made fun of his criticism of bashing-free trade.

One of Obama's best points is that he seems like he won't say sh**t just to please the people he is standing in front of.  I think a LOT less of him for this.  I think I'd actually rather him believe NAFTA sucks than to just say it but not mean it.  Integrity is very important to me.

Barr has more political integrity than Obama.

Not a lot more, but he has more.  If that's a key variable for you, then you probably should stay away from the main party candidates because compromise is an inherent party of democracy.

     Well said. The major parties got where they were because of compromise, not ideological purity.

[Lunar]

5) Barack Obama's economic liberalism is sort of a facade, in a way, forced upon him by fighting the longest Democratic primary in history.  Remember during the primary when he bashed NAFTA and all of his advisers got caught saying he didn't mean it?
6) The way to judge a presidential candidate is not by his rhetoric, but by his advisers.  I challenge you to prove to me he has radical economic advisers.  I've met one in the past and she even openly made fun of his criticism of bashing-free trade.

One of Obama's best points is that he seems like he won't say sh**t just to please the people he is standing in front of.  I think a LOT less of him for this.  I think I'd actually rather him believe NAFTA sucks than to just say it but not mean it.  Integrity is very important to me.

Barr has more political integrity than Obama.

Not a lot more, but he has more.  If that's a key variable for you, then you probably should stay away from the main party candidates because compromise is an inherent party of democracy.

     Well said. The major parties got where they were because of compromise, not ideological purity.

Well-said?  I had a typo -  "part" instead of "party!"

Anyway, I kind of find Barr repelling from an ideological and personal standpoint.  He kind of strikes me as a typical ideology-swapping politician more than most in many ways....

But he's more politically ethical than Obama or McCain, fosho.

[Alcon]

I hear the Libertarians hate him a whole lot.

The Libertarians dislike him because he's insufficiently pure.  My problems with Barr don't have much to do with any current ideological impurity.  I don't think that ideological purity is necessarily the greatest trait of an effective leader; a harmonious ethical outlook is more important in my eyes.

I'm more concerned with having a core, than chaining oneself to that core, but that still would be preferable to having no core whatsoever.

I don't think Barr has much of that core.  My (limited-exposure) sense is that he's kind of a pandering nitwit -- "kind of" not meant sarcastically.  A pandering nitwit whose lack of national ambition leaves him with a cleaner slate, but a bit of a pandering nitwit still.

but anyway.

[Associate Justice PiT]

5) Barack Obama's economic liberalism is sort of a facade, in a way, forced upon him by fighting the longest Democratic primary in history.  Remember during the primary when he bashed NAFTA and all of his advisers got caught saying he didn't mean it?
6) The way to judge a presidential candidate is not by his rhetoric, but by his advisers.  I challenge you to prove to me he has radical economic advisers.  I've met one in the past and she even openly made fun of his criticism of bashing-free trade.

One of Obama's best points is that he seems like he won't say sh**t just to please the people he is standing in front of.  I think a LOT less of him for this.  I think I'd actually rather him believe NAFTA sucks than to just say it but not mean it.  Integrity is very important to me.

Barr has more political integrity than Obama.

Not a lot more, but he has more.  If that's a key variable for you, then you probably should stay away from the main party candidates because compromise is an inherent party of democracy.

     Well said. The major parties got where they were because of compromise, not ideological purity.

Well-said?  I had a typo -  "part" instead of "party!"

Anyway, I kind of find Barr repelling from an ideological and personal standpoint.  He kind of strikes me as a typical ideology-swapping politician more than most in many ways....

But he's more politically ethical than Obama or McCain, fosho.

     I know. I'm stuck supporting him because we don't get Chuck Baldwin on the ballot here, & I find him to be the closest guy to me by far of those on the ballot. I generally don't write people in since nobody will take it seriously unless the write-in gets >5%.

[Lunar]

Anyway, my summation on economic issues is:

***1) Obama's economic advisors are actually University of Chicago types, I encourage you to look them up.  The best judgment of a president's policies are the people the surrounds himself with.  Was Bush a compassionate conservative or was he a bit more like Cheney or Rumsfeld etc?
2) He probably isn't going to touch NAFTA.  He might unfortunately, out of political interest, oppose the Colombian free-trade agreement that would never get out of th House to begin with.
3) If you truly oppose government intervention in the economy, what better way than let it happen?  McCain winning is to oppose government intervention 5%.  If it doesn't work to fix the free-market, let the political winds shift against such actions!
4) A good international standing is key for a positive international trade relationship.
5) Is Barr's record that pure?  Is McCain's?  What do you want your vote to stand for?  My inclination, from listening to you, is that a Barr vote would probably be the best for you (stand against the Bailout).  But I think considering other stances (against preemptive warfare?) is worthwhile, especially if you find your alternative option notably unappealing.

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

Do you have to keep depressing me about how non-liberal Obama is?

[Associate Justice PiT]

Do you have to keep depressing me about how non-liberal Obama is?

     Really liberal people don't win Presidential elections. You should be happy that you can get someone like Obama at least.

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

Do you have to keep depressing me about how non-liberal Obama is?

     Really liberal people don't win Presidential elections. You should be happy that you can get someone like Obama at least.

Gee, the best election for Democrats in at least 3 decades, and we get someone center-right. He may be a good fit for Lunar economically, but not for me. And he's not so great on social issues, either.

[dead0man]

Do you think union ballots should be open? Will lead to intimidation.

No and probably

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no

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no

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no

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God no

[Lunar]

Well, like I said above.  I suggest you look up the historical difference between rhetoric and actuality.  Barr has the freedom to blend the two a bit more than most (despite his awful un-libertarian pre-2007 positions) because he's not going to get elected.  But, if you want to know how a president's federal bureaucracy will run, look at his advisors now.  Do you see any extremists among them?  Or do you see the same economic conservatives that I see?

His policy advisors, like McCain's (and maybe even Barr's, supposing surprise victory?) will tell him to pass a few economically liberal bills and you and I will find that unfortunate but inevitable.  We probably disagree on the degree of government intervention in the bailout, but I also question if voting Barr is the best way to take a stand against that or if the best decision is to let the populist ideology (as you see it) play itself out.

The key thing that a president does is set a course on foreign policy.  I hope you remember that and read this:
http://www.prospect.org/cs/articles?article=the_obama_doctrine

What will your vote do?  Will your vote for Barr do what you want it to do?  Encourage more candidates like Barr?

Here's Obama's foreign security advisors:
http://www.connectusfund.org/obama

[Platypus]

Basically, walk into the booth and ask yourself three questions:

1) Will I regret this vote in future?

2) What does this vote mean for me, my family, Nebraska and the USA?

3) Am I making my vote count?

...and then you'll know who to vote for, whether that is Obama, barr, McCain or maybe even McKinney

[Lunar]

actually the above link contains Obama's economic advisors and other such advisors too, didn't realize.  I was looking for a better list, one that includes the one I spoke too, but all I got was a spouse.  I was initially looking for the Prospect article on Obama's "inner circle" which includes a person or two I met, but I can't find it and it's late.     Yarrrr!

The big-link text is worth the read, moreso prob than 99% of articles linked on this forum

[dead0man]

The key thing that a president does is set a course on foreign policy.  I hope you remember that and read this:
http://www.prospect.org/cs/articles?article=the_obama_doctrine

I do like most of his foreign policy aims.

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I've traditionally voted Libertarian (or occasionally Constitution) because I don't like throwing my vote away on someone that doesn't have the same political beliefs I do.  I feel a lot better post election than I would if I voted for one of the "big two".  I'd be partly to blame for Bush if I helped elect him and I'd hate to have that on my conscious.  I still feel like a tool for voting for Lee Terry in 2002 (the last Republican I voted for). 

I'd like to think my votes for non major party candidates are a small and insignificant "up yours" to the big boys.  If enough people do it, maybe one of the big boys will move in my direction politically.  That's how it usually works right?  I don't expect my guy to win and that's not why I vote, I vote to have my voice heard, I feel it can be heard best by voting for the person that most closely matches how I feel.

I suppose that means I'll be voting for Barr.  If Obama loses the NE-2 electoral vote by one vote, it's on your head!

[Lunar]

Here's a thought, and a funny one that's not meant to mean anything:

Now that NE-2 is in-play for the first and possibly only time in your life-time, an Obama vote would mean all that much more while a Libertarian vote (especially this year with an awful national campaigner) would mean all that much less.

You'll probably feel best voting Barr, but I just wanted to present another legitimate approach to your vote (and mine, for that matter, I live in CA) that makes sense.

I'm not trying to convince you, but rather hint towards why I support the Obamarama with "in the same ballpark" ideological views as yourself.

[dead0man]

Here's a thought, and a funny one that's not meant to mean anything:

Now that NE-2 is in-play for the first and possibly only time in your life-time, an Obama vote would mean all that much more while a Libertarian vote (especially this year with an awful national campaigner) would mean all that much less.

You'll probably feel best voting Barr, but I just wanted to present another legitimate approach to your vote (and mine, for that matter, I live in CA) that makes sense.

I'm not trying to convince you, but rather hint towards why I support the Obamarama with "in the same ballpark" ideological views as yourself.

That was the spark that got me thinking in the first place.  And your reasoning, Obama not being Kerry, Gore or a Clinton and Barr not being your "typical" Libertarian candidate, is what fanned the flames.

Damn it, now I'm torn again.

[dead0man]

...and I want you to convince me.


I do worry if I vote for Obama I'll feel bad if he turns into an evil Red like StatesRights and others fear.  It's not out of the realm of possibility yaknow.

[A18]

Obama will win anyway. I recommend voting McCain in order to minimize the extent of the blowout. (The larger Obama's majority, the larger the "mandate" he'll claim for so-called reform.)

But that's trivial compared to the issue of Congress. The Democrats are likely to rack up huge majorities; and the larger they are, the more socialism we can expect.

Obama is also likely to appoint a Supreme Court justice in his first two years. But how reasonable that lifetime appointment will be turns on the Senate, where your vote "doesn't matter."

[dead0man]

Just got finished walking home from the polls and I'm 0-5.  Sorry Obamaniacs.

[Lunar]

Probably the right move, yo.  I'm no going to sacrifice my integrity to try and pretend that Obama has a hidden reserve of political integrity that you're just not seeing

I could vote at any time but it looks soooo cooold out there.

[Mint]

Obama will win anyway. I recommend voting McCain in order to minimize the extent of the blowout. (The larger Obama's majority, the larger the "mandate" he'll claim for so-called reform.)

One of several reasons I've decided to crossover.

[Хahar 🤔]

I could vote at any time but it looks soooo cooold out there.

Today (well, yesterday) wasn't nearly as cold as the last couple days.