Help ratify the Liberty Amendment!

[migrendel]

Exactly, dustinasby. It protects a broad range of personal choices, including the abortion decision.

[A18]

You have not shown me anywhere in the Constitution where abortion is a right.

The right recognized is free exerise of choice. Not specifically the choice to abort or not, but it isn't prohibited either. Thus as a choice it is covered.

Liberty = freedom = choice. So again, I guess I can put a knife in someone's back because of the 14th amendment?

[John Dibble]

You have not shown me anywhere in the Constitution where abortion is a right.

The right recognized is free exerise of choice. Not specifically the choice to abort or not, but it isn't prohibited either. Thus as a choice it is covered.

Liberty = freedom = choice. So again, I guess I can put a knife in someone's back because of the 14th amendment?

Liberty freedom != anarchy freedom. You know that - as I said such extreme and silly examples are beneath someone of your intelligence. Don't act like an idiot.

[A18]

I know, but I don't consider abortion part of liberty freedom. The point is, it's been misconstrued and stretched by the courts to mean what they want it to.

[Bono]

You have not shown me anywhere in the Constitution where abortion is a right.

The right recognized is free exerise of choice. Not specifically the choice to abort or not, but it isn't prohibited either. Thus as a choice it is covered.

Liberty = freedom = choice. So again, I guess I can put a knife in someone's back because of the 14th amendment?

Liberty freedom != anarchy freedom. You know that - as I said such extreme and silly examples are beneath someone of your intelligence. Don't act like an idiot.

*Murray Rothbard comes back from the dead and smacks you with his hundredpage works.*

[John Dibble]

I know, but I don't consider abortion part of liberty freedom. The point is, it's been misconstrued and stretched by the courts to mean what they want it to.

I'm not disagreeing with that. The Constitution makes no mention, or even implication, of it. And since the issue is so mired in individual philosophy, I still say it should be left to the states.

[DA]

You have not shown me anywhere in the Constitution where abortion is a right.

The right recognized is free exerise of choice. Not specifically the choice to abort or not, but it isn't prohibited either. Thus as a choice it is covered.

Liberty = freedom = choice. So again, I guess I can put a knife in someone's back because of the 14th amendment?

But, your choices arn't allowed to purposly deny other humans of their choices. Not dying is a choice that people make.
I expect you to counter with something to the effect of, "but a fetus chooses to live too..." To which I respond, "this is the real heart of the matter. And it is many people's opinion that a foetus doesn't have the same rights as a developed human (just as children don't have as many rights as adults, i.e., more developed humans)"

From a constitutional p.o.v., a foetus is not expressly defined as or protected as a human. From a Biblical p.o.v., the punishment for killing a foetus is distinctivly lower than the punishment for killing a human or a slave (not considered human by Biblical standards). From a feminist p.o.v., the foetus is a part of the expecting mother's body until birth and it is her choice what to do with her body. From my (current) p.o.v., the foetus is a part of the expecting mother's and father's bodies (and to a lesser extent the expecting grandparents, great grandparents, and so on) and thus it is their choice what to do with their bodies. [A bodypart doesn't have to be "attached" (however that can be defined) to be a part of a person's body]


John Dibble, not everyone knows that "!=" means "not equals."

[John Dibble]

John Dibble, not everyone knows that "!=" means "not equals."

Yeah, I forgot about that. I'm a Computer Science major so I sometimes forget that not everyone knows basic code.

[A18]

I know PHP/Perl/Javascript, so I'm used to != being not equal.

What kind of choice should be honored and what shouldn't? Yes, me blowing up my neighbor's house is denying him a choice to not have it blown up. But if I don't, then his freedom of choice is blocking mine.

We all know what that amendment means: no one can be thrown in jail or put under house arrest except as punishment for a crime.

[John Dibble]

What kind of choice should be honored and what shouldn't? Yes, me blowing up my neighbor's house is denying him a choice to not have it blown up. But if I don't, then his freedom of choice is blocking mine.

Well, obviously so. However, we have already said that sometimes rights will conflict with eachother, and precedence must be determined. In the case of you blowing up the guy's house, things are clear - it's his property, so his right not to have his property blown up supercede your right to choose to do things. Property rights are the 'dominant' rights in this situation. You would also be doing him harm, as his shelter would have been destroyed. This is common sense - when you allow choices that cause direct harm to other people, you have anarchy, which does not result in freedom at all, quite the opposite in fact, because it results in tyranny.

Now, as abortion goes, I do not feel it is nearly so clear cut. I think there's clearly a conflict of rights, but which rights are dominant are not clear(Though I personally lean towards those of the fetus). There is much philosophical beliefs and questions within it. For instance, what constitutes a person? Is a fetus a person, or when does it become one? Is a fetus part of the mother or seperate(clearly symbiotic, but still the question is asked, and which is closer to the truth)? And there are more. Different people will have different answers, and on both sides you will find some are thoughtful and some are assinine. I think we all agree that in a perfect world nobody would feel the need or desire to have an abortion, but it isn't a perfect world so the issue will continue to be debated, probably forever as we will not have a concrete answer to most of the questions.

[DA]

I think we all agree that in a perfect world nobody would feel the need or desire to have an abortion, but it isn't a perfect world so the issue will continue to be debated, probably forever as we will not have a concrete answer to most of the questions.

Which is exactly why we need publicly paid philosophers!

[DA]

John Dibble, not everyone knows that "!=" means "not equals."

Yeah, I forgot about that. I'm a Computer Science major so I sometimes forget that not everyone knows basic code.

I took C++ 2 years ago, I always want to use "!=" when I'm  online. Then I took Logic and got used to "~".