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Author Topic: Happy Chanukah!  (Read 10426 times)
Meeker
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« Reply #25 on: December 22, 2008, 02:23:27 am »
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A great holiday, mostly because it nets me a lot of gelt.  Gelt tastes kind of crappy but it reminds me of my childhood.  Unlike Christmas, which reminds me of childhood with my relatives.  Chanukkah wins.

Oh, and also lamps that don't go out and stuff.  Love those!

You're a Jew?

This changes everything.
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MaxQue
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« Reply #26 on: December 22, 2008, 03:28:18 am »
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Happy Hannukah!

I didn't know than that was today. In my city, we never heard about it. We have a Catholic church, an Anglican church, a Pentecostal church, a Orthodox church and a Jehovah Witnesses thing, but no synagogue. We already had one, but that closed. Most of the Jews were English-speaking and the language laws pushed them out of the Quebec.
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True Democrat
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« Reply #27 on: December 22, 2008, 09:13:54 am »
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Christmas could kick Chanukah's ass any day of the week!

I remember that when I was a kid, I got a new present every day while Chanukah lasted (ie. 8 presents).  Beat that, Christ boy. Smiley

Yeah but you lose to the half-Jewish, half-Italian kids who grew up across the street from me.  They got Chanukah presents AND Christmas presents. 

Like me Smiley

Although, I never got presents all eight nights of Hanukkah.  And now, I only get like one or two Hanukkah presents.
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Lol Winfield.  This quote is from a thread entitled "what do the following proceed to do if they are not nominated?"
Romney - President of Harvard
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« Reply #28 on: December 22, 2008, 11:26:45 am »
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Matthew 25:41 (Jesus speaking to people at final judgment), ...Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels.

Revelation 14:11, And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night...

Revelation 20:12, 15, And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life...And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

None of those passages say "Jews will go to Hell." 

And Phil's right.  Catholics don't interpret the Bible the same way Protestants do. 

well, they say/infer that those who do not accept Jesus as their savior will go to Hell.  Jews believe Jesus was a heretic, so...


and how do Catholics interpret the above verses?  I don't see much wiggle-room, but I've been fooled before
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« Reply #29 on: December 22, 2008, 11:49:13 am »
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Matthew 25:41 (Jesus speaking to people at final judgment), ...Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels.

Revelation 14:11, And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night...

Revelation 20:12, 15, And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life...And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Quote
well, they say/infer that those who do not accept Jesus as their savior will go to Hell.  Jews believe Jesus was a heretic, so...

How do you infer that?  There's nothing there that says anything about accepting Jesus.  Is there further context to suggest that?  It sounds to me like you're making an assumption, rather than an inference. 

Quote
and how do Catholics interpret the above verses?  I don't see much wiggle-room, but I've been fooled before

Who was Jesus addressing when he spoke of "ye cursed"? 

Smoke from whose torment?

What is "the book of life" and who is supposed to be written in it? 

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tweed
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« Reply #30 on: December 22, 2008, 11:51:52 am »
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kind of annoying to answer my question with three separate questions


"Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved."
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paul718
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« Reply #31 on: December 22, 2008, 12:19:45 pm »
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kind of annoying to answer my question with three separate questions
 

You'll be okay. 

You said you didn't see much wiggle-room.  I was showing where I thought the wiggle-room was.  If you want me tell you how the Catholic Church interprets Biblical passages, I'm not gonna do it because I don't know how. 


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tweed
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« Reply #32 on: December 22, 2008, 12:28:44 pm »
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so you don't know what you believe?
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paul718
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« Reply #33 on: December 22, 2008, 12:38:21 pm »
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so you don't know what you believe?

We're not talking about what I believe.  We're talking about what the Catholic Church teaches.  I don't believe everything the Catholic Church tells me to believe.  Regarding Jews burning in hell, I don't think the Catholic Church teaches that.  I went to Catholic school for 14 years and don't remember that ever being taught.  Regardless, I believe that a good person, no matter what religion they practice, will go to Heaven.
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tweed
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« Reply #34 on: December 22, 2008, 12:46:53 pm »
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so you don't know what you believe?

We're not talking about what I believe.  We're talking about what the Catholic Church teaches.  I don't believe everything the Catholic Church tells me to believe.  Regarding Jews burning in hell, I don't think the Catholic Church teaches that.  I went to Catholic school for 14 years and don't remember that ever being taught.

of course not - it wouldn't be expedient for them do so, regardless of what is "officially" believed.  religion will not advertise its irrationality and absurdities.  I doubt they advertise their own rabid defense of geocentrism into the 17th Century, either.

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Regardless, I believe that a good person, no matter what religion they practice, will go to Heaven.

it is pretty difficult to argue that not to be in conflict with scripture, but to each his own
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« Reply #35 on: December 22, 2008, 01:06:03 pm »
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Matthew 25:41 (Jesus speaking to people at final judgment), ...Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels.

Revelation 14:11, And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night...

Revelation 20:12, 15, And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life...And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

None of those passages say "Jews will go to Hell." 

And Phil's right.  Catholics don't interpret the Bible the same way Protestants do. 

well, they say/infer that those who do not accept Jesus as their savior will go to Hell.  Jews believe Jesus was a heretic, so...


and how do Catholics interpret the above verses?  I don't see much wiggle-room, but I've been fooled before

I'm not going into the Catechism (especially not here, of all places). I just wanted you to realize that it is not the position of the Church that all non-believers are going to Hell.

Also, it is my understanding that Jews view Jesus as a great prophet. Muslims, too. The Jewish leaders at the time viewed him as a blasphemer. It's a bit different these days.
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« Reply #36 on: December 22, 2008, 02:13:13 pm »
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Nope, Jews do not believe Jesus was a prophet. Muslims do however.
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paul718
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« Reply #37 on: December 22, 2008, 03:00:47 pm »
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Regardless, I believe that a good person, no matter what religion they practice, will go to Heaven.

it is pretty difficult to argue that not to be in conflict with scripture, but to each his own

I disagree because I've never seen where it says that in the Bible.  But you're right, to each his own.
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« Reply #38 on: December 22, 2008, 05:50:22 pm »
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Technically tonight already is the second day. The Jewish day starts at sunset.
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Keystone Phil
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« Reply #39 on: December 22, 2008, 06:21:34 pm »
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Nope, only Muslims. He is as much of a heretic now as ever in our view. And I've spoken to a Roman Catholic who went to a Jesuit high school and I've been told that unless I accept Jesus Christ as my lord and savior I'm damned to hell for all eternity. Anyone knowledgeable enough to answer this question here?

Ok, well whoever told you that misunderstood. It's especially amusing because a Jesuit would have had to say that and Jesuits, of all people, don't believe that.
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The Mikado
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« Reply #40 on: December 22, 2008, 10:24:28 pm »
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Happy second night.
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« Reply #41 on: December 23, 2008, 01:02:12 pm »
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For Ben and my other Jewish friends on the forum...

I pray for God's blessings on you and your families this season.  May health, safety and happiness be yours during the Festival of Lights and beyond!
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« Reply #42 on: December 23, 2008, 01:07:38 pm »
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Happy Hanukkah, my friends.


Edit:  By the way, the priest offered a prayer to our Jewish brothers and sisters as they begin their celebration of Chanukah today at mass.  You aren't forgotten this time of year!

I never understood how/why you would pray for people that you think are going to burn for eternity, but I guess this isn't the right venue for that

Is that what the Catholic Church says?  I don't even know.

No, we don't. Just more ignorance on the part of the Catholic haters.

 I was gonna say that didn't sound right.

Matthew 25:41 (Jesus speaking to people at final judgment), ...Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels.

Revelation 14:11, And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night...

Revelation 20:12, 15, And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life...And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Oh go pound sand.

The passage in Saint Matthew's Gospel has nothing to do with Jews.  It's a judgment of nations and people groups of all sorts...based on what they did and didn't do with regard to "the least of these". There is nothing in the passage you cite...or in the broader context of the passage...that says Jews burn in hell for eternity.

The two passages from The Revelation of Saint John are apocryphal and even so -- not aimed at people of the Jewish religion.

I am not sure what's worse.  Fundamentalist Christians who are sure they are the only ones going to Heaven...or insulting non-Theists who are sure they know what Christians believe about who is and is not damned.  Please try to keep in mind that milions upon millions of Christians reject fundamentalism and do not define themselves or their faith on the basis of who are the "saints" and who are the "aints".
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« Reply #43 on: December 23, 2008, 01:16:11 pm »
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I think that you either should accept the bible or you shouldn't.  the phrase "moderate Christians" has never made any sense to me.  what does that mean?  finding some sort of happy medium between what scripture says and what you would like it to say?

JS, your postings remind me a bit of Dubcek's "socialism with a human face".  jmfcst's arguments have always made the most sense to me.



so, instead of telling me what I shouldn't believe, why don't you share your thoughts on the following questions (and, preferably, back it up textually, but, again, I don't have a gun to your head):

1. do Jews go to Hell if they do not accept Christ?
2. do aborted fetuses go to Hell?
3. at around two months old, I was diagnosed with strep in the blood and almost died.  my fever reached 108F at one point.  if I had died in December 1990, would I have gone to Hell?
4. is Christ the only path to salvation?

etc.
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« Reply #44 on: December 23, 2008, 02:02:03 pm »
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1. do Jews go to Hell if they do not accept Christ?

I can give you a theological answer.  Those (Jewish or not) who do not "accept Christ" are judged on the basis of what light they have.  People often ask me if the First Americans who never heard the Gospel message went to hell when the died.  Of course not.  What's more, like C.S. Lewis and G.K. Chesterton, I believe even those who heard the Gospel and rejected it because they could not or did not understand it are not damned. Ultimately, however, God decides.  And I do believe if a person hears, understands and feels the call of the Holy Spirit to receive Christ...but rejects that call over a lifetime...is certainly liable for that knowledge.  Does this mean they will burn in a literal Lake of Fire for all eternity?  Does it mean they will be in a place of eternal desolation, separated from God and love for all eternity? Does it mean they will simply wink out into some sort of oblivion we do not understand?  I am not sure.  I know God is sure...and God is just.  As an old saying goes, "When I can't trace God's hand, I shall trust God's heart."

2. do aborted fetuses go to Hell?
Of course not.  First, one has to have the discussion of whether or not they are even human or have souls.  There...I've upset both my Roman Catholic and my Protestant brothers and sisters! But seriously -- the Hebrew word for life is "breath".  And despite two specific Old Testament references to the possible personhood of fetuses in the woman...(these references more likely teach that God had a purpose for these specific pregnancies...speaking of both David and Jeremiah)...there are other Old Testament references to the fetus as having value as potential beings...yet distinct and less valuable that existing beings.  Else why the different levels of punishment in the Law of Moses for causing a miscarriage over against causing the death of a woman?

But presuming a conservative Evangelical view of the fetus, no.  They do not go to hell.  There is an historically Christian idea that each human is accountable for his acceptance or rejection of Jesus Christ at a particular age.  LOL -- in the church I was raised in, it was 12.  You could be "born again" or "saved" before 12.  But if you weren't "born again" or "saved" by the age of 12...only then were you at what they called "the age of accountability".  I never much cared for the idea...but the question is a fair one.  I think my position where question one is concerned is instructive.  It's not the age, it's the understanding that matters.  And a fetus cannot understand.  And therefore...if a fetus is a human soul...it absolutely goes to Heaven



3. at around two months old, I was diagnosed with strep in the blood and almost died.  my fever reached 108F at one point.  if I had died in December 1990, would I have gone to Hell?

Absolutely not.  See my answer above.

4. is Christ the only path to salvation?

Yes.  In fact, I am among the more conservative voices in my denomination on this subject.  I am not a pure Universalist.  I do not believe that Judaism, Buddhism, Islam, Paganis or any religion is on an equal plane with Christianity.  Before I go any further however, I have to say that every other religion has something to teach us and, more importantly, has followers who are honorable and outstanding people.  The same would be true of Atheism.

However, of every "god/God" worshiped in the history of the world...to my knowledge...only One has...

A.   Claimed to be both fully divine and fully human
B.   Freely accepted the worship of fellow humans
C.   Claimed to be sinlessly perfect, yet capable of and willing to bear the sins of every man, woman and child past, present and future.
D.    Claimed to believe that his death would atone for these sins
E.    Claimed to have literally, bodily risen from the dead (and been seen by hundreds of witnesses)

This is why I consider Christianity the one true religion.  Jesus Christ is the "nutcase" who said and did all these things.  As Lewis puts it, "He could be a liar.  He could be a lunatic.  Or he could be the Lord of Glory."

So now -- I believe Jesus is the true path.  But does that mean those who do not follow Jesus are automatically damned?  (This is where I will frustrate and anger the Evangelical and Fundamentalist Christians.) No.  Again, Lewis is instructive...though, remarkably, his Narnia work is where we get the picture we need.  It tells a story of one who served the false god, Tash.  He had never heard of Aslan, the true savior of Narnia.  Either that, or he heard but for reasons he could not be responsible for, he could not understand Aslan or his message.  So he served Tash.  At the judgment, he too, is welcomed into the Kingdom.  Aslan says, "when you served Tash with all your heart, you were truly serving me."

Equivocation?  Possibly.  Limp-wristed, namby-pamby universalism? I understand why some say that.  But what I know of God, I learned from the example of Jesus...whose relentless mercy and ferocious tenderness were anything but weak or equivocal.  And Jesus said, "If you have seen me, you have seen the Father.  I do what I see my Father doing." 

If a six year old who never heard of Jesus dies and goes to hell...if a Jew who has lived a life of compassion, service and love dies and, having never been able to get his mind around the idea of Jesus as the Messiah of Israel, goes to hell because he just couldn't "get with the program"...then that makes the God of the Bible a sorry, brutal bastard indeed.  The Bible is a guide...and a good one.  But it is one of several legs of the stool.  We are also guided by reason, tradition and experience.  As I have said before, a one-legged stool is wobbly and prone, without a really well-padded seat, to stick straight up one's ass.

Now that I have pissed off the non-Theists, non-Christians and liberal Christians for being too exclusive...and certainly infuriated the Evangelical and fundamentalist folk for being too soft-headed and inclusive...

I shall go and pound some sand myself...  ;-)

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« Reply #45 on: December 23, 2008, 02:59:03 pm »
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But presuming a conservative Evangelical view of the fetus, no.  They do not go to hell.  There is an historically Christian idea that each human is accountable for his acceptance or rejection of Jesus Christ at a particular age.  LOL -- in the church I was raised in, it was 12.  You could be "born again" or "saved" before 12.  But if you weren't "born again" or "saved" by the age of 12...only then were you at what they called "the age of accountability".  I never much cared for the idea...but the question is a fair one.  I think my position where question one is concerned is instructive.  It's not the age, it's the understanding that matters.  And a fetus cannot understand.  And therefore...if a fetus is a human soul...it absolutely goes to Heaven

In that case, does original sin only take effect at the age of 12? I'm not sure I can square this idea with the concept of original sin.
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« Reply #46 on: December 23, 2008, 03:48:13 pm »
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But presuming a conservative Evangelical view of the fetus, no.  They do not go to hell.  There is an historically Christian idea that each human is accountable for his acceptance or rejection of Jesus Christ at a particular age.  LOL -- in the church I was raised in, it was 12.  You could be "born again" or "saved" before 12.  But if you weren't "born again" or "saved" by the age of 12...only then were you at what they called "the age of accountability".  I never much cared for the idea...but the question is a fair one.  I think my position where question one is concerned is instructive.  It's not the age, it's the understanding that matters.  And a fetus cannot understand.  And therefore...if a fetus is a human soul...it absolutely goes to Heaven

In that case, does original sin only take effect at the age of 12? I'm not sure I can square this idea with the concept of original sin.

Most Evangelicals base this belief on King David's praise for God after the death of his infant son.  David, if memory serves, seemed confident he would be reunited with his son in Heaven.  I could have that wrong.

Of course, this is why I am more at home in a tradition where there is infant baptism.  Not so much as a guarantor against damnation...but as an initiation into the family of faith and (my Catholic friends will back me up in this) as an expression of communal participation in each child's life of faith.

Ultimately, I view the concept of original sin as a dead issue.  It was killed on the cross of Jesus Christ.  His heel was bruised, therefore he crushed the serpent's head.  "It is accomplished", he said.  I am, quite admittedly, in a place of uncertainty where the matter of salvation is concerned. The emergent Church, often a surprisingly Evangelical one in many respects, is starting to put forth some interesting (and actually quite ancient) ideas about faith.  The central question here is, "Was the death of Jesus on the cross sufficient or must some action (even mental action) of human will be required for salvation?"  If so, does this not negate Pauline teachings about salvation being exclusively the work of God, based solely on the merit of Jesus, the perfect sacrifice.

This has much to recommend it.  But, and I thoroughly expect Jmcfst to chime in here -- and I hope he will, because I have not abandoned the more modern and conservative soteriological view that some act on the part of man is required.  "With the mouth, one believes and is saved"...etc.

As I say, I am uncertain.  I do know that the opposite of faith is not doubt or curiousity.  Ironically, the opposite of faith is, IMHO, certainty.
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« Reply #47 on: December 23, 2008, 03:51:23 pm »
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Didn't the Catholics invent Limbo to deal with the "babies dying before baptism" thing?

I know Benedict got rid of Limbo, but it seems like a good solution.
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« Reply #48 on: December 23, 2008, 05:43:29 pm »
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I make a point of specifically wishing all my Jewish friends a Merry Christmas.




Well, I would if I had Jewish friends. I guess I'll just go eat a BLT bagel Cheesy
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« Reply #49 on: December 24, 2008, 12:51:02 am »
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Please try to keep in mind that milions upon millions of Christians reject fundamentalism and do not define themselves or their faith on the basis of who are the "saints" and who are the "aints".

Thank youuu! 
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