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Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.
jmfcst
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« Reply #75 on: January 06, 2009, 01:53:12 pm »
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1Cor 1:21 "God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe."

So, to me, that means, it pleased God to have salvation come to people by having those very same people believe in the foolishness of a message that was preached.  Therefore, to me, that means they were NOT saved prior to believing in the word of Christ, for what was preached was the need to accept that Jesus Christ died for the forgiveness of our sins, which seems like foolishness in the eyes of the world. 

Now, I ask you, how else can it be interpreted?
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I looked over Jordan, and what did I see?
Coming for to carry me home,
A band of angels coming after me,
Coming for to carry me home.

Swing low, sweet chariot,
Coming for to carry me home.
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« Reply #76 on: January 06, 2009, 02:16:47 pm »
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This isn't a 'political correctness' issue because it has been an issue of theological discussions for many many centuries.

Romans 8: But you are not in the flesh, but the spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. And if Christ be in you, the body indeed is dead, because of sin: but the spirit liveth, because of justification. And if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you; he that raised up Jesus Christ from the dead shall quicken also your mortal bodies, because of his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Again this affirms the Trinity, that the spirit of Christ is also the 'sprirt of him that raised up Jesus' (god). Therefore the Spirit is the agent of God and Christ.

Romans 8:14 -  For whosoever are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God

John 16:  But when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will teach you all truth. For he shall not speak of himself: but what things soever he shall hear, he shall speak. And the things that are to come, he shall show you. He shall glorify me: because he shall receive of mine and shall show it to you. All things whatsoever the Father hath are mine. Therefore I said that he shall receive of me and show it to you.

Is this truth not the Word? When this truth glorifies the Lord? If the Holy Spirit moves the heart of those who are exluded through circumstance from hearing the written word, how can that person be condemened if the Spirit carries the word of God?





Agin this shows that the Spirit is an agent of Christ.
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« Reply #77 on: January 06, 2009, 02:46:34 pm »
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This isn't a 'political correctness' issue because it has been an issue of theological discussions for many many centuries.

It has ALWAYS been a PC issue:

Rom 1:16 “I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes.”

And where is this debate?  I’m still waiting for it:  which verses do you use to claim someone can be saved without the preaching of the word?

---

Romans 8: But you are not in the flesh, but the spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. And if Christ be in you, the body indeed is dead, because of sin: but the spirit liveth, because of justification. And if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you; he that raised up Jesus Christ from the dead shall quicken also your mortal bodies, because of his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Again this affirms the Trinity, that the spirit of Christ is also the 'sprirt of him that raised up Jesus' (god). Therefore the Spirit is the agent of God and Christ.

Romans 8:14 -  For whosoever are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God

John 16:  But when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will teach you all truth. For he shall not speak of himself: but what things soever he shall hear, he shall speak. And the things that are to come, he shall show you. He shall glorify me: because he shall receive of mine and shall show it to you. All things whatsoever the Father hath are mine. Therefore I said that he shall receive of me and show it to you.

Is this truth not the Word? When this truth glorifies the Lord? If the Holy Spirit moves the heart of those who are exluded through circumstance from hearing the written word, how can that person be condemened if the Spirit carries the word of God?

Agin this shows that the Spirit is an agent of Christ.

The verses you quoted simply state those who have the Holy Spirit are saved, but what you are leaving out is HOW they received the Holy Spirit to begin with. for you can NOT receive the Holy Spirit without FIRST having FAITH in Jesus Christ:

John 7:39 “By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified.”

Gal 3:5 “Does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you because you observe the law, or because you believe what you heard?”

Gal 3:14 “He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.”

Eph 1:13-14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession—to the praise of his glory.”
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Do not fight with one another over my banning.  I've enjoyed the time I have spent with all of you, but the time really has come for me to leave.  It is what I want.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9Y_GLT4_9I

I looked over Jordan, and what did I see?
Coming for to carry me home,
A band of angels coming after me,
Coming for to carry me home.

Swing low, sweet chariot,
Coming for to carry me home.
Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.
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« Reply #78 on: January 06, 2009, 03:02:58 pm »
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If the Holy Spirit moves the heart of those who are exluded through circumstance from hearing the written word, how can that person be condemened if the Spirit carries the word of God?

Agin this shows that the Spirit is an agent of Christ.

We have a firm example in Acts 10 of how Cornelius was saved by God telling him to go and listen to the gospel from Peter:

"A holy angel told him to have you come to his house so that he could hear what you have to say." (Acts 10:22)

So, even when angels are set out to save those not currently hearing the preaching of the gospel, they steer them towards someone preaching the gospel.

---

Now, if you want to claim God is able to send an angel to preach the gospel of Jesus Christ to those beyond the reach of missionaries, I am NOT going to say that is impossible, though I am not sure there is any recorded history of it...unless you believe Joseph Smith.

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Do not fight with one another over my banning.  I've enjoyed the time I have spent with all of you, but the time really has come for me to leave.  It is what I want.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9Y_GLT4_9I

I looked over Jordan, and what did I see?
Coming for to carry me home,
A band of angels coming after me,
Coming for to carry me home.

Swing low, sweet chariot,
Coming for to carry me home.
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« Reply #79 on: January 06, 2009, 03:38:31 pm »
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This isn't a 'political correctness' issue because it has been an issue of theological discussions for many many centuries.

It has ALWAYS been a PC issue:

Rom 1:16 “I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes.”

To call it a matter of political correctness is to extremely oversimplify the issue. We're not talking about referring to stewardesses as "flight attendants" - we're talking about a serious matter about what people feel with their conscience is right and wrong. We're talking about something that can shatter faith altogether.

To many people the notion that the virtuous among those who haven't heard the gospel will be sent to hell by God simply because they don't believe in a gospel they've never heard of is a blatant contradiction to the notion that God is loving and just. It's the same issue when it comes to unbaptized babies that die going to hell because they weren't baptized by their parents. Such people usually only have a few options - either they stop believing in the gospel because they see it has a rather large contradiction that can't be ignored, or they believe that the virtuous among the non-evangelized have some sort of out. This might be what afleitch is suggesting, or it might be something like having an angel or Christ himself appear to them at the moment of their deaths to give them an opportunity to accept the gospel. It doesn't always involve them being saved, either. For example in Dante's Inferno the "virtuous pagans" still go to hell, but only the first circle, Limbo, which could be considered a deficient form of heaven - the people there suffer passively in the sense that they can't achieve anything greater because God isn't there, as opposed to the other circles of hell in which people are actively suffering and being tormented for their sins.

Now, you may very well be right and the correct interpretation is that they go burn in a lake of fire like everyone else, but that doesn't change the fact that this is a bigger issue than mere political correctness. Again, it's something that can be quite faith shattering.
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« Reply #80 on: January 06, 2009, 04:23:28 pm »
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The verses you quoted simply state those who have the Holy Spirit are saved, but what you are leaving out is HOW they received the Holy Spirit to begin with. for you can NOT receive the Holy Spirit without FIRST having FAITH in Jesus Christ:


I would contend that.

The Spirit came to Mary, to bear Jesus, it came to John, the son of Zacharias and Elizabeth when he was conceived  (Luke 1:15) filling him with the Holy Spirit some six months before an angel of the Lord spoke to Mary. It also came to Elizabeth (Luke 1:41) when Mary simply greeted her. After Elizabeth was filled with the Spirit she then knew and believed Jesus as Christ; 'Blessed art thou...''

So the Spirit came to John before the conception of Christ, before he was made flesh. It came to Elizabeth and later to Zacharias (Luke 1:67)

In Luke 2:25-26, we can see that the Spirit had came to Simeon, we can assume before Christ's birth as it had promised him at some point, (could have been days, could have been years before) that he would not die until he had seen the 'Lord's Christ'

All these people were of great faith, but a faith in God and that God would send his son as long prohpesised. Not a faith in Jesus as Christ. Not an understanding that Mary carried the Christ. Only when filled with the Holy Spirit did Elizabeth understand whom Mary was carrying. The Spirit was an aid to her understanding.
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« Reply #81 on: January 06, 2009, 04:27:24 pm »
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To many people the notion that the virtuous among those who haven't heard the gospel will be sent to hell by God simply because they don't believe in a gospel they've never heard of is a blatant contradiction to the notion that God is loving and just.

You're basically arguing that only adults who have heard the gospel are held accountable to God, but the rest of the world isn't held accountable to God.  Which contradicts the need for the gospel in the first place.  So, the contradiction is with your logic, not the bible's.

So, either the world is held accountable to God and therefore the need for the gospel, or the world is not held accountable to God and the gospel serves no purpose.

But we know that the world is under condemnation and it is Jesus that saves us from that comdemnation:

Rom 5:18 "Just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men."

---

It's the same issue when it comes to unbaptized babies that die going to hell because they weren't baptized by their parents.

not my belief, not my issue

---

Such people usually only have a few options - either they stop believing in the gospel because they see it has a rather large contradiction that can't be ignored, or they believe that the virtuous among the non-evangelized have some sort of out.

what about the option of trying to spread the gospel so that you help save as many as possible?

---

For example in Dante's Inferno the "virtuous pagans" still go to hell...

not my bible, not my problem Smiley

---

Now, you may very well be right and the correct interpretation is that they go burn in a lake of fire like everyone else, but that doesn't change the fact that this is a bigger issue than mere political correctness. Again, it's something that can be quite faith shattering.

political correctness is not just external, it is also internal

but there are examples the New Testament of "faith shattering" due to not wanting to come to grips with the cold reality of what was preached by Jesus:

John 6: 60 On hearing [Jesus’s teaching], many of his disciples said, "This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?" 61Aware that his disciples were grumbling about this, Jesus said to them, "Does this offend you?”... 66From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.  67"You do not want to leave too, do you?" Jesus asked the Twelve. 68Simon Peter answered him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69We believe and know that you are the Holy One of God."

So, it is not a function of how appealing the gospel is, rather it is a function of realizing you have no where else to turn.  And if there is no alternative, walking away doesn’t help you at all.


« Last Edit: January 06, 2009, 05:41:16 pm by jmfcst »Logged

Do not fight with one another over my banning.  I've enjoyed the time I have spent with all of you, but the time really has come for me to leave.  It is what I want.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9Y_GLT4_9I

I looked over Jordan, and what did I see?
Coming for to carry me home,
A band of angels coming after me,
Coming for to carry me home.

Swing low, sweet chariot,
Coming for to carry me home.
Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.
jmfcst
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« Reply #82 on: January 06, 2009, 05:33:29 pm »
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The verses you quoted simply state those who have the Holy Spirit are saved, but what you are leaving out is HOW they received the Holy Spirit to begin with. for you can NOT receive the Holy Spirit without FIRST having FAITH in Jesus Christ:


I would contend that.

[Mary…Elizabeth…John the Baptist…Zacharias…Simeon]

You’re choosing examples prior to the new covenant being put into place.  No one is saying there weren’t a handful of individuals who received the Holy Spirit prior to Jesus.  In fact, I could have picked any number of prophets from the old testament and said the same thing you’re saying.

But the ushering in of the New Covenant has changed the rules:

Acts 16:29"Therefore since we are God's offspring, we should not think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone—an image made by man's design and skill. 30In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. 31For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to all men by raising him from the dead."

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Do not fight with one another over my banning.  I've enjoyed the time I have spent with all of you, but the time really has come for me to leave.  It is what I want.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9Y_GLT4_9I

I looked over Jordan, and what did I see?
Coming for to carry me home,
A band of angels coming after me,
Coming for to carry me home.

Swing low, sweet chariot,
Coming for to carry me home.
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« Reply #83 on: January 06, 2009, 09:20:34 pm »
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To many people the notion that the virtuous among those who haven't heard the gospel will be sent to hell by God simply because they don't believe in a gospel they've never heard of is a blatant contradiction to the notion that God is loving and just.

You're basically arguing that only adults who have heard the gospel are held accountable to God, but the rest of the world isn't held accountable to God.  Which contradicts the need for the gospel in the first place.  So, the contradiction is with your logic, not the bible's.

So, either the world is held accountable to God and therefore the need for the gospel, or the world is not held accountable to God and the gospel serves no purpose.

I argued no such thing. Your reading comprehension is lacking as usual. You'll note that I specifically used the word "virtuous" - in this context it would mean someone who would behave as you would expect a model Christian would. You know, people who devote their time and energy to helping the sick and the poor and whatnot, general good Christian behavior, doing so without having heard the gospel tell them. We're not talking about unrepentant mass murdering sociopaths getting out of hell just because they haven't heard the gospel or anything of that nature. Aside from those self-proclaimed Christians who don't believe in hell (which I'll agree is quite silly and contradictory since the Bible explicitly states hell exists) you won't find many who object to the vehement sinners among the unevangelized being sent there.

Furthermore, even if the virtuous non-evangelized can be saved, or at least not eternally tormented, it doesn't mean there's no reason to spread the gospel. Suppose you spread the word to someone who is not virtuous and they decide to change their ways when they otherwise would have not done so, saving them and lowering the overall level of sin in the world. So spreading the gospel could theoretically result in more people being saved than if things were just left as is. Thus there is no contradiction in this logic.

Quote
It's the same issue when it comes to unbaptized babies that die going to hell because they weren't baptized by their parents.

not my belief, not my issue

I never said it was your belief, I just provided a similar example.

Quote
Such people usually only have a few options - either they stop believing in the gospel because they see it has a rather large contradiction that can't be ignored, or they believe that the virtuous among the non-evangelized have some sort of out.

what about the option of trying to spread the gospel so that you help save as many as possible?

Would you honestly try to spread the word of a being you thought was hateful and evil? That's hardly an option for a moral person. And again, these people find the notion that a loving and just deity would send people to hell for not believing a gospel they've never heard of to be a complete and utter contradiction - why is it you can't wrap your head around that? It's really quite a simple concept.

Quote
For example in Dante's Inferno the "virtuous pagans" still go to hell...

not my bible, not my problem Smiley

Again, it's just a f**king example. Why is it you feel the need to dismiss and belittle the ideas of others without a second thought?

Quote
political correctness is not just external, it is also internal

Political correctness is petty. This is not. PERIOD. You can belittle the internal moral struggles of others all you want, but the fact that this is a serious issue that people have deep thoughts and considerations about does not change one iota.
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« Reply #84 on: January 07, 2009, 10:59:14 am »
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You'll note that I specifically used the word "virtuous" - in this context it would mean someone who would behave as you would expect a model Christian would. You know, people who devote their time and energy to helping the sick and the poor and whatnot, general good Christian behavior, doing so without having heard the gospel tell them.

You can’t be saved with good works, for “without faith it is IMPOSSIBLE to please God” (Heb 11:6) And that “faith” is specifically defined in the New Testament as faith in Jesus Christ.

---

Furthermore, even if the virtuous non-evangelized can be saved, or at least not eternally tormented, it doesn't mean there's no reason to spread the gospel. Suppose you spread the word to someone who is not virtuous and they decide to change their ways when they otherwise would have not done so, saving them and lowering the overall level of sin in the world. So spreading the gospel could theoretically result in more people being saved than if things were just left as is. Thus there is no contradiction in this logic.

Yes, there is contradiction in your logic, for you’re stating that only really bad people need Christ, when the scriptures clearly state that we ALL are bad and in need of faith in Christ:

Romans 3:22 “This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus”

---

Quote
Quote
For example in Dante's Inferno the "virtuous pagans" still go to hell...

not my bible, not my problem Smiley

Again, it's just a f**king example. Why is it you feel the need to dismiss and belittle the ideas of others without a second thought?

Smiley faces imply joking.  So, I didn’t mean to offend your affections for Dante. Wink

---

 
Quote
Quote

 Such people usually only have a few options - either they stop believing in the gospel because they see it has a rather large contradiction that can't be ignored, or they believe that the virtuous among the non-evangelized have some sort of out.

what about the option of trying to spread the gospel so that you help save as many as possible?

Would you honestly try to spread the word of a being you thought was hateful and evil? That's hardly an option for a moral person. And again, these people find the notion that a loving and just deity would send people to hell for not believing a gospel they've never heard of to be a complete and utter contradiction - why is it you can't wrap your head around that? It's really quite a simple concept.

People are NOT condemned for not believing in Christ, rather they are condemned based on their own sin.  Faith in Christ REMOVES the wrath of God for the individual:

John 3:36 “Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him”

So, unbelief doesn’t bring condemnation. 

===

Quote
political correctness is not just external, it is also internal

Political correctness is petty. This is not. PERIOD. You can belittle the internal moral struggles of others all you want, but the fact that this is a serious issue that people have deep thoughts and considerations about does not change one iota.

Reread the passage I posted where many disciples left Christ because they couldn’t accept the gravity of reality Jesus painted….you’ll find that Jesus did NOT attempt to cuddle the “internal moral struggles and deep thoughts and considerations” of those who walked away from God because they couldn’t handle the truth.

Those “internal moral struggles and deep thoughts and considerations” are based on people judging God and are contrary to what Jesus was teaching.

And Jesus reacted to the rejection of his stated reality by asking if any one else wanted to leave.  Those that remained put aside their own judgments of God and accepted God judgments.  And this acceptance drove them to spend their lives spreading the word in an urgent attempt to save as many as they could.

So, to lighten this conversation, I’ll quote one of my favorite movie scenes:

- “You want answers?”
                   
- “I want the truth!”
                   
- “You can't handle the truth!”

Those words might as well apply to much of Christianity in America and Europe.


« Last Edit: January 07, 2009, 11:01:09 am by jmfcst »Logged

Do not fight with one another over my banning.  I've enjoyed the time I have spent with all of you, but the time really has come for me to leave.  It is what I want.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9Y_GLT4_9I

I looked over Jordan, and what did I see?
Coming for to carry me home,
A band of angels coming after me,
Coming for to carry me home.

Swing low, sweet chariot,
Coming for to carry me home.
IDS Judicial Overlord John Dibble
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« Reply #85 on: January 07, 2009, 01:28:55 pm »
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People are NOT condemned for not believing in Christ, rather they are condemned based on their own sin.  Faith in Christ REMOVES the wrath of God for the individual:

John 3:36 “Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him”

That's the thing - the people that we're talking about never had any knowledge of it. They were unaware of it, they never even heard the name of Jesus before they died. You can't reject something you know nothing of.

Quote
So, unbelief doesn’t bring condemnation.

You can try to justify it all you like, but the model is quite simple. Believe -> saved, don't believe -> hell.

It's all there in plain English:

Quote
You can’t be saved with good works, for “without faith it is IMPOSSIBLE to please God” (Heb 11:6) And that “faith” is specifically defined in the New Testament as faith in Jesus Christ.

Romans 3:22 “This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus”

John 3:36 “Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him”

So believe or be sent to hell through God's willful wrath is the message I'm seeing here.

Or are you saying that God doesn't make the rules? That his wrath is not under his control? That he does not decide who is saved and who is condemned?
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« Reply #86 on: January 07, 2009, 02:25:19 pm »
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People are NOT condemned for not believing in Christ, rather they are condemned based on their own sin.  Faith in Christ REMOVES the wrath of God for the individual:

John 3:36 “Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him”

That's the thing - the people that we're talking about never had any knowledge of it. They were unaware of it, they never even heard the name of Jesus before they died. You can't reject something you know nothing of.

True.  Condemnation depends on being a sinner.  The removal of condemnation depends on sinners hearing and accepting the word of Christ.

----

Quote
So, unbelief doesn’t bring condemnation.

You can try to justify it all you like, but the model is quite simple. Believe -> saved, don't believe -> hell.


There’s no justification needed.  You’re just leaving out the whole picture in order to state that condemnation is the result of non-belief, when it isn’t.  Rather, it is like…

Sinner Lost and without the word:  No Sin->No condemnation->Sin->condemnation->hell

Sinner Lost and disbelieving of the word:  No Sin->No condemnation->Sin->condemnation->hearing the word->disbelief->condemnation remains->hell

Sinner Lost then saved through belief:  No Sin->No condemnation->Sin->condemnation->hearing the word->belief->faith->removal of condemnation(salvation)->heaven

Now, if you were sinless, then it wouldn’t matter if you heard the word or not, for there would be no need for it:

Sinless:   No Sin->No condemnation->Still no sin->Still no condemnation->heaven

So, it is SIN that puts you to death (brings condemnation), not disbelieving:

“The wages of sin is death” Rom 6:23.

---

The following should be obvious:  If death isn’t the result of sin, then Christ would not have had to die for our sins.  Likewise, if death is the result of disbelief, then Christ would have had to have died for our disbelief, which he did NOT.

1Cor 15:3 "Christ died for our sins"
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Do not fight with one another over my banning.  I've enjoyed the time I have spent with all of you, but the time really has come for me to leave.  It is what I want.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9Y_GLT4_9I

I looked over Jordan, and what did I see?
Coming for to carry me home,
A band of angels coming after me,
Coming for to carry me home.

Swing low, sweet chariot,
Coming for to carry me home.
IDS Judicial Overlord John Dibble
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« Reply #87 on: January 07, 2009, 02:51:59 pm »
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People are NOT condemned for not believing in Christ, rather they are condemned based on their own sin.  Faith in Christ REMOVES the wrath of God for the individual:

John 3:36 “Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him”

That's the thing - the people that we're talking about never had any knowledge of it. They were unaware of it, they never even heard the name of Jesus before they died. You can't reject something you know nothing of.

True.  Condemnation depends on being a sinner.  The removal of condemnation depends on sinners hearing and accepting the word of Christ.

That's the problem - the people in question are those who've never been given a chance to hear the word of Christ, making it impossible for them to accept it. How is it you can expect anyone to believe that God loves these people when he never gave them a shot at salvation? Essentially it would mean he abandoned them - would you abandon someone you love?
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« Reply #88 on: January 07, 2009, 04:19:05 pm »
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True.  Condemnation depends on being a sinner.  The removal of condemnation depends on sinners hearing and accepting the word of Christ.

That's the problem - the people in question are those who've never been given a chance to hear the word of Christ, making it impossible for them to accept it. How is it you can expect anyone to believe that God loves these people when he never gave them a shot at salvation? Essentially it would mean he abandoned them - would you abandon someone you love?

Dibble, how is it you can follow and understand scripture, yet fail to discern what you have witnessed within this very thread?

Mat 28:18 "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

God chose fallible Christians to spread the gospel to the ends of the earth and so God equipped them to do so. 

But pick up a catholic catechism, or a statement of beliefs from many major protestant denominations, and you’ll read that Muslims and Jews don’t require conversion to Christianity in order to be saved.

God didn’t abandon them, Christians did.

1 Corinthians 15:34 “Come back to your senses as you ought, and stop sinning; for there are some who are ignorant of God—I say this to your shame.”

The realization that Christians have been given “all authority in heaven and on earth” to spread the gospel and save those in the world, yet refuse to spread the gospel, is harder to swallow than the fact the world is lost without Christ.

Mat 9:37 "The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few.”

That’s the tragedy that I see!  That is what is hard for me to accept!

And that shame Paul mentions falls also on me, for I am also to blame.

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« Reply #89 on: January 07, 2009, 05:36:46 pm »
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I post this as a person who was raised Catholic, but am no longer Catholic and no longer Christian or an adherent of any religion (though I do hold a doctoral degree in Religious Studies, but I specialize in Indian and Chinese traditions).  So, my biases, if I have them, are rooted in that background.

I hardly begrudge Christians the right to carry out missionary activity.  I think that devotees of all religious traditions have a right to tell others about their faith and even attempt to persuade others of their beliefs.  When one talks of condemnation, however, one is talking about judgment, and insofar as I ever had any understanding of Christianity, judging is God's job and God's job alone; human beings are not equipped to judge or condemn others, and indeed, they are prohibited by Christ from doing so ("Judge not, and you will not be judged.  Condemn not, and you will not be condemned.  Forgive and you will be forgiven.")  Certainly, Christians are enjoined to spread the gospel, but beyond that, they are enjoined to love others as God loves all.

It would be exceedingly good if this was all there was to the matter.  But, historically, this has not been the case.  Christians have taken the directive to make disciples of all nations, when they came to political power, to colonize, coerce, and covert on pain of death, exile and disenfranchisenemt.  The long and torturous history of this heritage in Europe was precisely what led the Founders of the United States, many of whom were undoubtedly sincere and devoted Christians, to ensure that the state would not be an instrument of religious conversion on behalf of any denomination, and this was done precisely to protect the religious beliefs of all.  That means that the United States is supposed to be a pluralistic society.  I always get the feeling that American Christians who take their commission to convert others seriously are at pains to live in a pluralistic society, many seem fundamentally unhappy that there are people living in the same society who do not share their religious beliefs.  Why do I get this feeling?

Because this thread started with Happy Chanukah wishes and turned into a thread about Christian missionary activity.  Why did that have to happen? 
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« Reply #90 on: January 07, 2009, 07:59:31 pm »
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Dibble, how is it you can follow and understand scripture, yet fail to discern what you have witnessed within this very thread?

You talk of failure to understand but it is quite clear you have no understanding of what I have been trying to tell you. I understand what you are saying quite clearly on the other hand - I just don't agree with it as being the truth, in part because I see a rather obvious contradiction.

Quote
Mat 28:18 "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

God chose fallible Christians to spread the gospel to the ends of the earth and so God equipped them to do so.

But pick up a catholic catechism, or a statement of beliefs from many major protestant denominations, and you’ll read that Muslims and Jews don’t require conversion to Christianity in order to be saved.

God didn’t abandon them, Christians did.

1 Corinthians 15:34 “Come back to your senses as you ought, and stop sinning; for there are some who are ignorant of God—I say this to your shame.”

So let me get this straight - Christians abandoned people that at the time they did not know existed and did not have the technological means at the time to reach even if they did? In case you've forgotten there was this whole big other continent that Christian missionaries could not possibly reach for well over a thousand years. Travel by land was also very limited and dangerous, limiting the ability to spread the gospel. It's not like today when you can hop on an airplane and go almost anywhere in under a day.

You claim that God equipped the Christians to spread the gospel to the ends of the Earth, but when did he give them boats capable of traversing the vast and stormy seas that separate the major landmasses? Heck, when did he tell them that there was another major landmass that had millions of people upon it that they needed to reach? Seems to me they were under-equipped.

Quote
The realization that Christians have been given “all authority in heaven and on earth” to spread the gospel and save those in the world, yet refuse to spread the gospel, is harder to swallow than the fact the world is lost without Christ.

Mat 9:37 "The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few.”

That’s the tragedy that I see!  That is what is hard for me to accept!

And that shame Paul mentions falls also on me, for I am also to blame.

Whether there were enough willing evangelists at the time is not the problem. Even with armies of preachers there were still places that could not be reached in time to spread the word to give everyone a chance to hear the gospel before they died. Do you get it - it was a physical impossibility for the gospel to reach many before they died. To claim it was the fault of the limited human beings whose responsibility it was to spread the gospel is blatantly dishonest or shows a complete and total lack of common sense.

So yes, it was God who didn't give the people in question even a chance, so unless he gave them some method to avoid eternal torment he did abandon them, thus showing that he is not a loving deity.
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« Reply #91 on: January 07, 2009, 08:05:45 pm »
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I post this as a person who was raised Catholic, but am no longer Catholic and no longer Christian or an adherent of any religion (though I do hold a doctoral degree in Religious Studies, but I specialize in Indian and Chinese traditions).  So, my biases, if I have them, are rooted in that background.

I hardly begrudge Christians the right to carry out missionary activity.  I think that devotees of all religious traditions have a right to tell others about their faith and even attempt to persuade others of their beliefs.  When one talks of condemnation, however, one is talking about judgment, and insofar as I ever had any understanding of Christianity, judging is God's job and God's job alone; human beings are not equipped to judge or condemn others, and indeed, they are prohibited by Christ from doing so ("Judge not, and you will not be judged.  Condemn not, and you will not be condemned.  Forgive and you will be forgiven.")  Certainly, Christians are enjoined to spread the gospel, but beyond that, they are enjoined to love others as God loves all.

You can NOT use “do not judge” to nullify acknowledgment that “the wages of sin are death”…NOR can you use “do not judge” to nullify acknowledgment of that Christ is the only path to salvation…NOR can you use “do not judge” to nullify any other knowledge the scripture provides.

Jesus did NOT say, “Do not judge…therefore, forget everything I’ve taught you.”

What Jesus actually said was, Mat 7:1"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.”

Obviously, when I recited the passages which teach the necessity of faith in Christ, I also applied those very same verses to myself.  So, where is the hypocrisy in that?

---

But, historically, this has not been the case.  Christians have taken the directive to make disciples of all nations, when they came to political power, to colonize, coerce, and covert on pain of death, exile and disenfranchisenemt.  The long and torturous history of this heritage in Europe was precisely what led the Founders of the United States, many of whom were undoubtedly sincere and devoted Christians, to ensure that the state would not be an instrument of religious conversion on behalf of any denomination, and this was done precisely to protect the religious beliefs of all.  That means that the United States is supposed to be a pluralistic society.  I always get the feeling that American Christians who take their commission to convert others seriously are at pains to live in a pluralistic society, many seem fundamentally unhappy that there are people living in the same society who do not share their religious beliefs.  Why do I get this feeling?

Because you’re “judging” all evangelicals by the actions of a few tyrants.
 
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Because this thread started with Happy Chanukah wishes and turned into a thread about Christian missionary activity.  Why did that have to happen? 

Here’s your culprit (I am innocent…of course Wink   )  :

Edit:  By the way, the priest offered a prayer to our Jewish brothers and sisters as they begin their celebration of Chanukah today at mass.  You aren't forgotten this time of year!

I never understood how/why you would pray for people that you think are going to burn for eternity, but I guess this isn't the right venue for that
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« Reply #92 on: January 07, 2009, 08:23:49 pm »
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You claim that God equipped the Christians to spread the gospel to the ends of the Earth, but when did he give them boats capable of traversing the vast and stormy seas that separate the major landmasses? Heck, when did he tell them that there was another major landmass that had millions of people upon it that they needed to reach? Seems to me they were under-equipped....To claim it was the fault of the limited human beings whose responsibility it was to spread the gospel is blatantly dishonest or shows a complete and total lack of common sense.

Well, if men found a way to spread over the continents before:

Acts 17:26 "From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth"

surely it is "common sense" to believe the way could be found again.

---

Even with armies of preachers there were still places that could not be reached in time to spread the word to give everyone a chance to hear the gospel before they died. .

I thought we already went over that "men were without excuse" (though I may have been discussing that with JSJ earlier in this thread)

Rom 1:18-20 18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

and, again...

Rom 10:17-18 Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ. 18But I ask: Did they not hear? Of course they did: "Their voice has gone out into all the earth, their words to the ends of the world." (paul is quoting Psa 19:4)

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I looked over Jordan, and what did I see?
Coming for to carry me home,
A band of angels coming after me,
Coming for to carry me home.

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« Reply #93 on: January 07, 2009, 08:41:27 pm »
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You claim that God equipped the Christians to spread the gospel to the ends of the Earth, but when did he give them boats capable of traversing the vast and stormy seas that separate the major landmasses? Heck, when did he tell them that there was another major landmass that had millions of people upon it that they needed to reach? Seems to me they were under-equipped....To claim it was the fault of the limited human beings whose responsibility it was to spread the gospel is blatantly dishonest or shows a complete and total lack of common sense.

Well, if men found a way to spread over the continents before:

Acts 17:26 "From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth"

surely it is "common sense" to believe the way could be found again.

It took tens of thousands of years and a land bridge that wasn't around anymore during Jesus's time for humanity to spread across the world. It took over another one thousand and four hundred years for technology possessed by Christians to reach the level where they could reach the land mass you now stand on, and even then when they finally got there it wasn't where they had intended to end up. So again, how is it you can blame the missionaries for not doing that which was impossible for them to do?

(I'm also going to nitpick that they didn't inhabit the whole of the earth - Antarctica was uninhabited for very obvious reasons, or does Antarctica not count as part of earth? But hey, it's only semantics, right? Wink)

---

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Even with armies of preachers there were still places that could not be reached in time to spread the word to give everyone a chance to hear the gospel before they died. .

I thought we already went over that "men were without excuse" (though I may have been discussing that with JSJ earlier in this thread)

Rom 1:18-20 18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

So God is plain to see, but we need missionaries to spread the gospel so people know about him. Sounds like a contradiction. Either people know or they don't, make up your mind.

Quote
and, again...

Rom 10:17-18 Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ. 18But I ask: Did they not hear? Of course they did: "Their voice has gone out into all the earth, their words to the ends of the world." (paul is quoting Psa 19:4)

They've all heard about it, but we need missionaries to go and tell them about it. Seems like a contradiction. Either people know or they don't, make up your mind.
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« Reply #94 on: January 07, 2009, 10:11:12 pm »
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They've all heard about it, but we need missionaries to go and tell them about it. Seems like a contradiction. Either people know or they don't, make up your mind.

not a contradiction at all:  God created man and gave him the word of God.  Man misused/ignored God's word and became a sinner.  Man’s punishment for sin was death and he was driven from the presence of God. 

But God foretold that the offspring of humanity would destroy the devil one day and redeem humanity. Meanwhile, even though God's invisible qualities were still visible through creation, men went and worshipped god's they made up - they become pagans and worshipped things they could touch and feel. 

So, when the time was drawing near to redeem mankind through the seed of the woman,  God gave a certain nation set of ritualistic laws (the Law of Moses) to help us identity the son of man that would redeem mankind. And when that time reached it’s fulfillment, God manifested himself in human flesh, being born of a woman, and walked among us. He redeemed us by taking our punishment upon him, dying for our sins, and rising again in order to give us a new life free of the condemnation of death.

And he chose man, the same creature that misused God’s word in the first place, to go out to the ends of the earth and save mankind by preaching God’s word. 

And now, the same word whose misuse by man resulted in death, now is used by man to restore life.  Oh, the irony of it all!


So, you yourself may not like the timetable involved in God restoring light to the world, but it was man’s fault for turning off the lights in the first place.

And your complaints about God’s timetable, and your complaints about his provisions to those charged with spreading the gospel, are extremely hypocritical, for at least God did show up and contribute, though maybe not in a timeframe you approve of…but now that he has died for you and given you a bible through his messengers, you STILL refuse to accept and spread his word.

So, please, spare me your tears for the lost and your condemnation of God, for if you really cared about the world being lost, you would be spreading the Gospel of Jesus Christ.  Instead, you choose not to lift a finger to help.  Instead, you waste time, when people are dying lost, pointing your finger at God.  Which is, again, hypocritical, since God did lift a finger – in fact, God stepped down off of his thrown and became a servant and took our place on the cross in order to save you. In comparison, what did you ever do to save the lost?

And, even if you still refuse to believe, I don’t know why you waste your time arguing with me; for you’re not arguing with my interpretation of scripture, in fact, you’re agreeing that my interpretation is valid, and you certainly aren’t going to convince me to judge God.  And since you agree that my interpretation is valid, your contention is not with me, but with God.

It’s not that I mind talking with you, but seriously: since you have a problem with God and not with me, why do you even bring me into the picture?  Why don’t you go and take it up with God?  And if you don’t believe the God of the bible exists, why do you spend time complaining to me about a character you believe is fictional?!

I don’t know about anyone else here, but if I have complained for years on end, which you have done, about the cruelty of a character I admitted was fictional, I think I would don a straight jacket and start looking for the nearest hospital.

But, despite all your grumblings against God, God, through his love, is still if offering you a chance not only to save yourself, but also your own family and many others as well.

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I looked over Jordan, and what did I see?
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Coming for to carry me home.

Swing low, sweet chariot,
Coming for to carry me home.
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« Reply #95 on: January 08, 2009, 05:19:42 am »
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I don’t know about anyone else here, but if I have complained for years on end, which you have done, about the cruelty of a character I admitted was fictional, I think I would don a straight jacket and start looking for the nearest hospital.

But, despite all your grumblings against God, God, through his love, is still if offering you a chance not only to save yourself, but also your own family and many others as well.


Yet you fail to recognise that you were appealing to Dibble to support you above all others when you have had debates in the past. Even very recently when you and I had a debate. I found it odd that you were appealing to someone who is a self declared non-Christian (no matter how I argued or how you did) because no one on your 'own team' were willing to.

If anything, as Dibble has admitted in the past, you pretty much helped seal the deal on where he stood.

Dibble may or may not believe in God, but it doesn't mean he cannot grapple with the theological context, something which you have an inability to do. Theology, or more simply 'thoughts other than ones own' have never been your strong point.
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« Reply #96 on: January 08, 2009, 09:07:45 am »
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Yet you fail to recognise that you were appealing to Dibble to support you above all others when you have had debates in the past. Even very recently when you and I had a debate. I found it odd that you were appealing to someone who is a self declared non-Christian (no matter how I argued or how you did) because no one on your 'own team' were willing to.

which "team" are you referring to here?  the heterosexual team or the christian team? for the only team "mate" I had on the christian team was a homosexual trying to twist scripture, so it’s not like I could appeal to that Christian teammate for support.

So, don’t blame me that your theory on Mat ch 19 didn’t have a lot of participation, for no one was buying it.

and who else would have joined in?  Not JSJ - the last time he attempted to give a straight answer regarding his homosexuals-are-saved theory, he insisted on wanting answers to every other question under the sun before he would address the flaws in his argument regarding homosexuality.  He even attempted to question whether repentance was a requirement of salvation because he postulated that it might be “works”
(, and even in this thread he was questioning the necessity of faith in Christ because belief in itself is an action could be construed as a “work”.  And strangely, he suggested that the purpose of the Gospel is merely to inform people that they have already been saved so that they can live a happy life, instead of saving those who are lost.)

So, if you wanted others to join in, next time pick something that is believable.

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If anything, as Dibble has admitted in the past, you pretty much helped seal the deal on where he stood.

As did Christ with the followers who left him.  God gave us the authority to preach the Gospel that Christ himself taught.  He did NOT give us the authority to change it in order to make it more appealing to the masses, and thus destroy its power.

---

Dibble may or may not believe in God, but it doesn't mean he cannot grapple with the theological context, something which you have an inability to do. Theology, or more simply 'thoughts other than ones own' have never been your strong point.

Now THAT is rich! 

This debate regarding the necessity of faith in Christ has been one the most lopsided scriptural debates ever on this forum (JSJ couldn’t even offer a single verse to support his position that faith in Christ was not necessary for salvation, and the only examples you offered were those that predated the new covenant).  And yet you accuse ME of only being able to consider my own thoughts?!

My “theology” has everything to do with using scripture to take control of my own thoughts that swarm around in my imagination - an imagination that desires nothing but pretty pictures and sugar coated stories.  But, I accept what is written in scripture and use it to tame my imagination.

But your “theology” is nothing more than your imagination run amok.


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I looked over Jordan, and what did I see?
Coming for to carry me home,
A band of angels coming after me,
Coming for to carry me home.

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« Reply #97 on: January 08, 2009, 10:01:11 am »
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So, don’t blame me that your theory on Mat ch 19 didn’t have a lot of participation, for no one was buying it.


Really? Considering it only involved me you and Dibble, with me buying it, you not and Dibble, fairly, sitting on the fence...

Dibble,

I can’t believe you continue to waver between the two opinions.

Why shouldn't I "waver"? If neither of you can conclusively prove your opinion as fact in my eyes should I just choose blindly? Only an idiot would do that.

As I stated, I'm not even going to bother anymore - it's quite clear you either are incapable of understanding what is being argued to you in plain English or you just don't want to understand because it might threaten your fragile little ego to even consider you might be wrong. Given your attitude I'm going to suppose the latter.

Who else wasn't buying it? Or if silence equals dissaproval I could conserve both time and energy by simply ignoring you from now on!

Infact if it wasn't for me or Dibble no one here give you the time of day Wink



My “theology” has everything to do with using scripture to take control of my own thoughts that swarm around in my imagination - an imagination that desires nothing but pretty pictures and sugar coated stories.  But, I accept what is written in scripture and use it to tame my imagination.

But your “theology” is nothing more than your imagination run amok.

This has nothing to do with my theology, Lord no.

It's entirely about your inability to fathom any thought, Biblical or non Biblical that does not come from your own head (making you an egoist by definition). That is particularly self evident by some of your Forum Community style posts.
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« Reply #98 on: January 08, 2009, 10:39:26 am »
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It's entirely about your inability to fathom any thought, Biblical or non Biblical that does not come from your own head

Really?  I would have thought most people on this forum consider me unable to think for myself and would accuse me of letting the bible do the thinking for me.

---

(making you an egoist by definition).

My ego doesn’t come from my mind, but from girls reacting to my body.  But, that’s just the opinion of the girls, and I won’t be so bold as to question their judgment.  However, I do think my mind adds to the attraction.

---

That is particularly self evident by some of your Forum Community style posts.
\
You lost me.

In any case…

Do you have any issues with my thesis that you would like to dispute with scripture, I rather keep this about what the bible says instead of about me.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9Y_GLT4_9I

I looked over Jordan, and what did I see?
Coming for to carry me home,
A band of angels coming after me,
Coming for to carry me home.

Swing low, sweet chariot,
Coming for to carry me home.
Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.
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« Reply #99 on: January 08, 2009, 12:12:08 pm »
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I don’t know about anyone else here, but if I have complained for years on end, which you have done, about the cruelty of a character I admitted was fictional, I think I would don a straight jacket and start looking for the nearest hospital.

But, despite all your grumblings against God, God, through his love, is still if offering you a chance not only to save yourself, but also your own family and many others as well.


Yet you fail to recognise that you were appealing to Dibble to support you above all others when you have had debates in the past. Even very recently when you and I had a debate.

You thought it was for MY benefit that I invited Dibble into that discussion?!  Surely I am more transparent than that.

I was hoping Dibble could see the distinction between an argument that distorts the word of God and one that portrays it clearly.  And once presented with that distinction, I was hoping God would allow Dibble to discern the reality of the purpose behind spiritual deception, for that is exactly how I was saved:

I became a Christian much like Paul did when he was knocked off his horse...it wasn’t by choice, I was called.  In 1992, I was dating a girl (who later became my wife).  She belonged to a Christian church (World Wide Church of God, founded by Herbert Armstrong) which was mixing a lot of the Laws of Moses (unclean foods, Jewish Holy Days) into Christianity.  After a couple of dates, she informed me she wasn’t supposed to be dating outside of her church.  So, I told her I would look into her beliefs.

I was raised a Christian (Catholic), but didn’t practice it, didn’t go to church, and knew only two verses of the bible, Gen 1:1 and John 3:16.  So, I could maybe be categorized a “Christian” for the purpose of a Census, but that is about as far as my Christianity went.

Luckily, I hadn’t been brain-washed enough by the Catholic Church to think I couldn’t interpret the bible myself without the help of the Vatican.  So, I thought, “All these denominations can’t all be right since they have differing beliefs.  I’ll just read the bible and see what it says and let the chips fall where they may, even if it means I can’t date my current girlfriend."

On my very first night of my “research” into the bible, I happened to begin at the book of Galatians.  Which just so happens to be addressed to a near carbon-copy of my girlfriend’s church.

After reading for about an hour, it was obvious that her church’s mixing of the Law of Moses was off-track. And God opened my eyes and I started thinking to myself, “What is the purpose of their deception?”  Then God allowed me to perceive the spiritual battle that was going on in her church’s deception – that there was a battle being waged over the possession of something of value – souls.  That there was a purpose to their deception, that demonic forces were deceiving them to keep them from being saved.

At that point, I got up from the table where I was studying and wept out of joy that I finally believed in Jesus (I guess you can say I believed in Jesus because God allowed me to perceive the forces deceiving my girlfriend’s church).  And I paced my floor of my apartment weeping out of joy that I finally believed.

At that moment I asked a myself a question, “Is this why [my girlfriend and the association with her church] had been brought into my life, so that I would believe?” (I actually used to subscribe to the free magazines her church published when I was a teenager, because I occasionally stumbled upon their broadcast on TV very late at night.  And it just so happened that when I was in college, I became friends with a guy whose dad was a deacon in that church.  And through that friend I became friends with many of the sons of the leadership of that church and they had become my circle of friends for several years and I hung around their families, including their parents, almost every weekend.  It was through them I met my girlfriend at a party and I felt an immediate spiritual attraction to her the first instant I laid eyes on her and I had never felt that before with anyone, much less the first moment of meeting someone.  This really perplexed me because I had always treated women worse than I had treated my cars, and I was hard on my cars.  I kept a close eye on her for a year because she was dating one of my close friends at the time and I was also dating someone.  After a year, neither one of us was dating anyone and I asked her out.  My study began a couple of weeks later.)

So, my question “Is this why [all these things] had been brought into my life, so that I would believe?” was very loaded and included events going back to when I was a teenager.  Immediately after I asked that I received the Holy Spirit and God spoke to me and said, “Yes, that is the reason why.  Now go and tell them the truth.”

Obviously, my revelation from God didn’t sit well with my girlfriend or her parents, or my friends in her church, or the parents of my friends who just happen to be part of the leadership of that church.  To put in mildly, it was as if God had dropped a bomb in my life and my “revelation” sent shockwaves through many families and turned mine upside down.  I had been a non-religious friend to several of the families of the leadership of a church, I had been a guest at their dinner tables dozens upon dozens of times...and now I was coming to them claiming that I, a non-religious person, had a message for them from God that they were deceived.

Through all of it, I saved my girlfriend (who later became my wife) and just of few friends out of that church.  But I also led my mother and step-father to Christ and my brothers still to this day frequently ask me questions about Jesus.

Therefore, don’t think I am presenting a thesis in order to seek anyone’s approval of me, for  I do NOT need a letter of recommendation from Dibble or anyone else on this forum…nor do I seek one:

Gal 1:10 “Am I now trying to win the approval of men, or of God? Or am I trying to please men? If I were still trying to please men, I would not be a servant of Christ.”

Rather, I attempt to portray the word of God clearly and concisely, as it is written, so that others may also find truth and be saved. 

And even if I should happen to receive commendation, I want it to be from the conscience of others who realize I have given, in front of everyone and in the sight of God, a solid and trustworthy interpretation:

2Cor 2:42 “Rather, we have renounced secret and shameful ways; we do not use deception, nor do we distort the word of God. On the contrary, by setting forth the truth plainly we commend ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.


Logged

Do not fight with one another over my banning.  I've enjoyed the time I have spent with all of you, but the time really has come for me to leave.  It is what I want.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9Y_GLT4_9I

I looked over Jordan, and what did I see?
Coming for to carry me home,
A band of angels coming after me,
Coming for to carry me home.

Swing low, sweet chariot,
Coming for to carry me home.
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