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Author Topic: Obama and the Italian-American vote  (Read 9528 times)
Hatman
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« Reply #25 on: December 22, 2008, 02:18:57 pm »
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Interesting. In Canada, Italians tend to be hardcore Liberals. They also hold an unusually high number of the mayorships for their population.
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« Reply #26 on: December 22, 2008, 05:34:09 pm »
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Interesting. In Canada, Italians tend to be hardcore Liberals. They also hold an unusually high number of the mayorships for their population.

Ours tend to be liberal too, in the economic sense. They are somewhat conservative on social issues though, especially when it comes to "race".
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Хahar
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« Reply #27 on: December 22, 2008, 07:18:33 pm »
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Interesting. In Canada, Italians tend to be hardcore Liberals. They also hold an unusually high number of the mayorships for their population.

Ours tend to be liberal too, in the economic sense. They are somewhat conservative on social issues though, especially when it comes to "race".

Don't let the names confuse you. The Liberals in Canada are conservative (though not far-right).
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« Reply #28 on: December 22, 2008, 07:24:55 pm »
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Interesting. In Canada, Italians tend to be hardcore Liberals. They also hold an unusually high number of the mayorships for their population.

Ours tend to be liberal too, in the economic sense. They are somewhat conservative on social issues though, especially when it comes to "race".

Don't let the names confuse you. The Liberals in Canada are conservative (though not far-right).

They are generally moderate on economic issues and liberal on social issues or at least that was my understanding. I didn't note the capital "L" though when I responded to him.
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« Reply #29 on: December 22, 2008, 07:28:11 pm »
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Interesting. In Canada, Italians tend to be hardcore Liberals. They also hold an unusually high number of the mayorships for their population.

Ours tend to be liberal too, in the economic sense. They are somewhat conservative on social issues though, especially when it comes to "race".

Don't let the names confuse you. The Liberals in Canada are conservative (though not far-right).

How does one make the eye-rolling emoticon again?
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« Reply #30 on: December 22, 2008, 07:32:44 pm »
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Interesting. In Canada, Italians tend to be hardcore Liberals. They also hold an unusually high number of the mayorships for their population.

Ours tend to be liberal too, in the economic sense. They are somewhat conservative on social issues though, especially when it comes to "race".

Don't let the names confuse you. The Liberals in Canada are conservative (though not far-right).

How does one make the eye-rolling emoticon again?

Code:
::)

But they are conservative, in a way that the Tories are not. Is it possible for a party not to be conservative after being in power so long?
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« Reply #31 on: December 22, 2008, 08:24:35 pm »
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Most Italians I know are also conservative, but more in the Giuliani-esque "tough cop" sense.  Italians are also more conservative than the Irish on business issues as well hence more Italians are business owners.  On social issues, I'd say they're about even with the Irish, but Irish are a smidge to the left economically hence more Democratic. 

Like I said, I really depends on the type of social issue with white ethnic Catholics- most are conservative on the crime/punishment and dare I say race issues, split on the "bedroom"/religious social issues.
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« Reply #32 on: December 22, 2008, 10:54:49 pm »
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I'd say that the Irish-Americans tend to be the left of Italian-Americans in most if not all areas.
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Verily
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« Reply #33 on: December 22, 2008, 11:08:33 pm »
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I'd say that the Irish-Americans tend to be the left of Italian-Americans in most if not all areas.

It's not clear to me that they're to the left ideologically. Certainly tribally the Irish are Democratic and the Italians Republican. But that probably has more to do with "ancient" events than anything in the modern day.
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« Reply #34 on: December 22, 2008, 11:11:03 pm »
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I'd say that the Irish-Americans tend to be the left of Italian-Americans in most if not all areas.

It's not clear to me that they're to the left ideologically. Certainly tribally the Irish are Democratic and the Italians Republican. But that probably has more to do with "ancient" events than anything in the modern day.

Well, to be fair, that is mostly just based upon my own interactions with them. I do know a hell of a lot of them though. Wink
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Hatman
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« Reply #35 on: December 23, 2008, 12:01:39 am »
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Interesting. In Canada, Italians tend to be hardcore Liberals. They also hold an unusually high number of the mayorships for their population.

Ours tend to be liberal too, in the economic sense. They are somewhat conservative on social issues though, especially when it comes to "race".

Don't let the names confuse you. The Liberals in Canada are conservative (though not far-right).

How does one make the eye-rolling emoticon again?

Xahar has a point. But, that's not a discussion for here. Italians here tend to be on the right of the Liberal Party anyways, if that has anything to with it. Italian politicians also tend to appear as more corrupt as well. (Gagliano, Volpi...)
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« Reply #36 on: December 23, 2008, 12:47:52 am »
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I live in a very heavily Italian area, I would say most Italians around here are generally moderate on social and economic issues (though the wealthier ones tend to be more conservative economically) and generally a bit conservative on law and order  type issues.  I would need to see the precinct numbers to know for sure, but I would say my precinct was very close (Gore won it in 2000, Bush in 04) but the overall area went to McCain.  I think Obama did a bit better than Kerry in 04, but trended towards McCain compared to the national average. 
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« Reply #37 on: December 23, 2008, 01:44:05 am »
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I live in a very heavily Italian area, I would say most Italians around here are generally moderate on social and economic issues (though the wealthier ones tend to be more conservative economically) and generally a bit conservative on law and order  type issues.  I would need to see the precinct numbers to know for sure, but I would say my precinct was very close (Gore won it in 2000, Bush in 04) but the overall area went to McCain.  I think Obama did a bit better than Kerry in 04, but trended towards McCain compared to the national average. 

Where in NY are you?
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« Reply #38 on: December 23, 2008, 05:26:20 am »
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Funnily enough I have been mostly spared intimate knowledge of either the Italians or the Irish.  I think the only Italian I know is half Jew, and thank goodness takes after that half.  His mother and grandmother however were Italian however - definitely Democrat though.

Come to think of it I have one Italian friend over here in Thailand, but he's a tattooed lady-boy-fanatic.. perhaps atypical?  Perhaps not?
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« Reply #39 on: December 23, 2008, 10:42:27 am »
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I live in a very heavily Italian area, I would say most Italians around here are generally moderate on social and economic issues (though the wealthier ones tend to be more conservative economically) and generally a bit conservative on law and order  type issues.  I would need to see the precinct numbers to know for sure, but I would say my precinct was very close (Gore won it in 2000, Bush in 04) but the overall area went to McCain.  I think Obama did a bit better than Kerry in 04, but trended towards McCain compared to the national average. 

Where in NY are you?

Long Island-  Massapequa
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« Reply #40 on: December 23, 2008, 09:58:03 pm »
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It would be interesting to look at some cities/precincts with large Italian-American populations in places like Chicago, Cleveland, Buffalo compared with the metro-NY area population.

I suspect this will be difficult to quantify in much of the country, since by this point most second and third generation families have migrated to the suburbs and beyond outside of NY/NJ and small pockets elsewhere.

I suspect that the 3rd generation and beyond pretty much mirrors the White population of a similar demographic and region that they live and since it much more concentrated in the NE and Great Lakes district tends towards the Democratic party like many other older Whites in those regions.

It sounds like metro NY Italian-Americans might be a little more Republican than the average White population, certainly in Verily's sample of NJ.

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« Reply #41 on: December 23, 2008, 10:06:55 pm »
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Funnily enough I have been mostly spared intimate knowledge of either the Italians or the Irish. 

Me too. Where I live you're either black or white. Nobody knows what to think of Asians and Hispanics Tongue
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« Reply #42 on: December 27, 2008, 07:33:05 pm »
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I'm an Italian.
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« Reply #43 on: December 27, 2008, 09:39:36 pm »
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I'm an Italian.

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« Reply #44 on: December 27, 2008, 09:55:42 pm »
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thank you.
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« Reply #45 on: December 28, 2008, 12:25:56 am »
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« Reply #46 on: December 28, 2008, 06:38:24 pm »
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OK----- not to rain on the parade here but are you both really thanking a corrupt populist quasi-fascist political figure?

Berlusconi got his financial start involving corrupt construction contracts with state dollars, then gravitated towards generating a media monopoly with similar financial dealings in that sector. Then was elected PM after forming an alliance with the Fascists and anti-immigrant LN movement, and later presided over the police murder of an anti-globalization demonstrator in Genoa a few years back.

Are both of you claiming that this populist, corrupt, ally of Fascist leaning political movements is a genuine FF? Surely there must be a better example of Italian heroes.
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Hatman
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« Reply #47 on: December 28, 2008, 10:11:33 pm »
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OK----- not to rain on the parade here but are you both really thanking a corrupt populist quasi-fascist political figure?

Berlusconi got his financial start involving corrupt construction contracts with state dollars, then gravitated towards generating a media monopoly with similar financial dealings in that sector. Then was elected PM after forming an alliance with the Fascists and anti-immigrant LN movement, and later presided over the police murder of an anti-globalization demonstrator in Genoa a few years back.

Are both of you claiming that this populist, corrupt, ally of Fascist leaning political movements is a genuine FF? Surely there must be a better example of Italian heroes.

Welcome to the forums
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« Reply #48 on: December 28, 2008, 11:04:02 pm »
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OK----- not to rain on the parade here but are you both really thanking a corrupt populist quasi-fascist political figure?

Berlusconi got his financial start involving corrupt construction contracts with state dollars, then gravitated towards generating a media monopoly with similar financial dealings in that sector. Then was elected PM after forming an alliance with the Fascists and anti-immigrant LN movement, and later presided over the police murder of an anti-globalization demonstrator in Genoa a few years back.

Are both of you claiming that this populist, corrupt, ally of Fascist leaning political movements is a genuine FF? Surely there must be a better example of Italian heroes.

My "admiration" for Berlusconi is only half serious. I'm more of a fan of his party and him being a thorn in the side of the leftists in Europe.

You raise valid complaints but the "presided over the police murder of an anti-globalization demnstrator in Genoa" is just beyond ridiculous. Seriously. He was Prime Minister at a time when a demonstrator was killed. You act as if he ordered the murder. Don't be disingenuous. That's not like you.
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« Reply #49 on: December 29, 2008, 11:05:57 pm »
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OK----- not to rain on the parade here but are you both really thanking a corrupt populist quasi-fascist political figure?

Berlusconi got his financial start involving corrupt construction contracts with state dollars, then gravitated towards generating a media monopoly with similar financial dealings in that sector. Then was elected PM after forming an alliance with the Fascists and anti-immigrant LN movement, and later presided over the police murder of an anti-globalization demonstrator in Genoa a few years back.

Are both of you claiming that this populist, corrupt, ally of Fascist leaning political movements is a genuine FF? Surely there must be a better example of Italian heroes.

My "admiration" for Berlusconi is only half serious. I'm more of a fan of his party and him being a thorn in the side of the leftists in Europe.

You raise valid complaints but the "presided over the police murder of an anti-globalization demnstrator in Genoa" is just beyond ridiculous. Seriously. He was Prime Minister at a time when a demonstrator was killed. You act as if he ordered the murder. Don't be disingenuous. That's not like you.

OK--- I'll grant you that claiming that he was in any way directly involved, or that the death of a demonstrator was premeditated would be an absurd claim to make.

I followed the demonstrations closely through European websites at the time, and there were multiple instances of extreme police brutality including an incident where a school where several hundred demonstrators was raided by police as they were lined up against a wall, beaten with clubs, and forced to sing Fascist anthems to pictures of Mussolini. This was not at one of the Anarchist community centers, where violent actions were being planned.

The broader point is that he is more corrupt than Blago, and has had key allies on the extreme-Right at times during his coalition governments in a country where there is still a significant minority that has Fascist sympathies. Unfortunately the method of crowd control that he endorsed for the G-8 summit gave license to the more extreme-right elements of the police force to use methods that haven't been applied in Italy in decades.

I normally don't react to political postings in a particularly emotional fashion, but I lived in Europe for awhile and am sensitive to any mainstream political figure that gives license to the darker elements of the extreme-right. In my view Berlusconi offers nothing to a real center-right Italian political movement, and there are much better political figures to embrace that offer more for the future of that country and the world.
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